Why do some karateka sensei wear hakima?

OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
Dr. Kano took it from Go.
Read it here.
Tang Soo Do World
After reforming his Kodakan Judo, He was asked by Dai NipponButoku Kai to chair a commitee to explore reforms in other arts.

The commitee drew up proposed documents of reforms.
And a number of arts or systems modernized in accordance with Dai Nippon Butoku Kai's new Kyu/Dan rank system.

Karate had to accept them as a requirement to join the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai...

The Dai Nippon Butoku Kai operates subordinate to the Ministry of Education.

In his professional life, Kano was an educator. Important postings included serving as director of primary education for the Ministry of Education (函 Monbush) from 1898 to 1901, and as president of Tokyo Higher Normal School from 1901 until 1920.

He played a key role in making judo and kendo part of the Japanese public school programs of the 1910s.
 
Last edited:

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,759
Reaction score
10,127
Location
Maui
Still looks cool.

I don't care the era, it factors. You know how us chop-sockey guys are.
 
OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
Still looks cool.

I don't care the era, it factors. You know how us chop-sockey guys are.

Ya.. I am thinking or daydreaming about requiring hakama for all non leg involved training for my students.


"I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so" -The Vapors


Rather than the kimono... I prefer robes such as this one.
Black robe white cuffs over white hakama and gi shorts, with black Geta clogs.
And maybe a Kasa hat (non conical and maybe black lacquered bamboo) on days forcasted with rain or no cloud cover.

See 3:09 for the Robe I also like.

GLG1007_2_main.jpg
1202221422f5ae43ae2b094792__59127_zoom.jpg

Kasa hat.
Japanese_buddhist_monk_hat_by_Arashiyama_cut.jpg
 
Last edited:

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
22,863
Reaction score
8,505
Location
Pueblo West, CO
What do you mean by that?

The dan ranking system was originally used by players of the game Go, similarly to how chess players are ranked in Western culture. Kano took the ranking system and applied it to his students.
 
OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
Skull and cross bones mode... I like.
Duckface model... not so much.

b16.jpg
Then there is breast cancer awareness karateka mode.
img53421910.jpg



I think he is overcompensating, but I will let someone else tell him.
Sensei-hakama.jpg
 
Last edited:
OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
img53421912.jpg

Out of work mma fighter side lines as model. I like everything but the herringbone print.
 
Last edited:
OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
What do you mean by that?

This is something that you should read.
Its very on topic.
The Judo Rank System - Belts

After that...
History of TSD Belt System 2.jpg
Here is Dr.Kano in Hakama and Haori.

Kano based his Dan and Kyu in Japanese from the game of Go.

Go, known in Chinese as Weiqi and in Korean as Baduk, is an ancient board game for two players that is noted for being rich in strategy despite its simple rules.

In Go, rank indicates a player's skill in the game. Traditionally, ranks are measured using Gup or Kyu and Dan grades, a system which also has been adopted by many martial arts due to Kano.

Go Ranks

Rank Type Range Stage
Double-digit kyu 30-20k Beginner
Double-digit kyu 19-10k Casual Player
Single-digit kyu 9-1k Intermediate/Club Player
Amateur dan 1-7d (where 8d is special title) Expert Player
Professional dan 1-9p (where 10p is special title) Professionals
Note the Dan Ranks range from 1-9 with 10th being a special title similar to most martial arts ranking systems.

Kano's original use of the Kyu/Dan was eventually used by Funokoshi (Shotokan's founder) and made its way to Korea via the Koreans that trained in Shotokan and Judo (Yudo in Korean).

In KMAs
The Gup system was simply a reversal of the Kyu ranking. Starting at 10th Gup you progressed by counting down as you reach Dan you climbed back up the numbers.



* Kano's system was 1st to 4th Dan as testable ranks (or even instant promotion due to specific tournament rules) but with 5th or above being honorary Dans only.

The following ranks could not be earned. The could only be recognized or bestowed. Futhermore Kano said ranks higher then 10th exist.

However the Kodakan has only recognized 15 individuals as being 10th Dan in its history.

5th degree godan
6th degree rokudan
7th degree shichidan
8th degree hachidan
9th degree kudan
10th degree judan


Originally, Menkyo (Korean this would be Meon Ho) a form of certificate(s) was used before the use of belts came into play.

It distinguished one's place in a school or art long before anyone ever thought about the use of belt ranking.

Typically classical schools (kory贖) usually use the menkyo system while schools which base their practice on bud forms ("path, or way") typically use the Kyu/Dan.
This is not always the case but it usually is.

Schools in Japan usually were classified either as kory贖 or Gendai bud, meaning "modern martial way", which are modern martial arts that were established after the Meji Restoration (1866-1869).

Kory贖 are the opposite: ancient martial arts established before the Meiji Restoration (sword arts, archery and battle field arts for example).
 
Last edited:

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
22,863
Reaction score
8,505
Location
Pueblo West, CO
Ya.. I am thinking or daydreaming about requiring hakama for all non leg involved training for my students.

What do you think adopting such a requirement would add to their training?
 
OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
What do you think adopting such a requirement would add to their training?

A sense of historical fashion.

Esprit De Corp.

Why did the US Army Green Beret of Ft Benning go with that head gear?

To make them different, that they will become the tribe.
And have a common uniqueness that bonds.


Which is why I am researching why Okinaiwan and Japanese KarateKa wore the garment and why some still do.
The KMA of Gumdo wears it. Even the Korean National team.

Gumdo is a clear derivative of Kendo.

Why should I teach second hand okinaiwan forms, and award Japanese inspired ranks derived from Japanese Karate and Judo and ignore the rest of a rich fullness of a legacy and heritage?
 
Last edited:

Grenadier

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
10,826
Reaction score
617
Admin's note:

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep this discussion civil, and on-topic.
 

Flatfish

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
679
Reaction score
296
Historical fashion well and good but if people start doing TKD in loin cloths I'm quitting....
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
22,863
Reaction score
8,505
Location
Pueblo West, CO
A sense of historical fashion.

Esprit De Corp.

Because wearing a Gi doesn't already label them as a MA practitioner?

Why did the US Army Green Beret of Ft Benning go with that head gear?

To make them different, that they will become the tribe.
And have a common uniqueness that bonds.

To identify them as people who had completed a specific training regime. Pretty much exactly that a Gi and rank belt does.

Why should I teach second hand okinaiwan forms, and award Japanese inspired ranks derived from Japanese Karate and Judo and ignore the rest of a rich fullness of a legacy and heritage?

So what does Japanese clothing have to do with Korean martial arts?
 
OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
Because wearing a Gi doesn't already label them as a MA practitioner?



To identify them as people who had completed a specific training regime. Pretty much exactly that a Gi and rank belt does.



So what does Japanese clothing have to do with Korean martial arts?

Re point one.
This isn't about simply identification as a MA. But about something else.

Re point two.
You missed the point. The green beret is the headgear that separates one army grunt from another. As well as unit patch and jump wings... but you missed the point.

All karate derived styles pretty much have dobok/gi & dee/obi in common. We dont use school patches or lettering on our doboks. I may choose formal attire for my students.


Re: pt.3

Again the question I raise wasn't answered in your question.
 
OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
Except that black gi pants are fairly rare as well in fact, outside of TKD, other Korean forms, and modern, eclectic Western variants, you basically don't see it at all particularly in Japanese and Okinawan systems so huh?

_2a_032k.jpg

kata nunchaku.jpg





Milos Stanic 4.dan promotes old okinawan empty hand and weapon traditions (shorin ryu karate & matayoshi kobudo)

He led his Dojo in his countries national team in the ITKF.
He is very traditional. There is nothing eclectic in his arts.

He kind of upsets the "particularly in Japanese and Okinawan systems... no black gi pants" position that you are holding.

Now there is a phrase found in Okinawa:
Like brother and sister, Karate and Kubodo always together.

I bring this up because shorin ryu karate & matayoshi kobudo are not eclectic or western or modern... and yet

You will also see (below) a native okinaiwan wearing a black gi top and white gi pants while working with sai.


In 2002, Uechi-ryu published an article that he wrote about Kabudo weapons. This one about the Sai.
Sai: Okinawa Kobudo | Uechi-ryu Martial Arts

Matayoshi Shinko... interesting fellow and important fellow. He was a karateka, a kobudoka and went to China to learn even more martial arts.
Was asked to perform Kabudo for Prince Hirohito.

Too bad he cant make his mind up about picking a color gi to wear. It totally messes with "uniformly uniform" image that we sometimes see and perhaps expect to see.

There is debate whether this is him or his son in the photo.
mata2.jpg
 
Last edited:

Chris Parker

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
6,259
Reaction score
1,104
Location
Melbourne, Australia
As found in an article on A "jiu jutsu" website.
It supports your formal attire position.
There are some who say that the keigogi or judogi were much like long john under garments. It makes sense in that respect. Layering is a natural response to cold climate in the fall winter and spring.

Hakama are the skirt-like pleated pants worn by higher ranking belts (usually instructors) in more traditional Japanese martial arts schools. They are worn by black belts and sometimes brown belts in Aikido and in some more traditional Jiu-jitsu schools. This seemingly innocuous piece of clothing is an identifiable topic in the ongoing debate of tradition vs. practicality.

The hakama were originally worn by the Samurai. The baggy, flowing material served to protect their legs while riding, but it is also generally accepted that they had the side benefit of disguising their stance and footwork from their opponents.

The hakama also have symbolic importance, though I imagine that the significance of the pleats was added after the fact and not when the garment was originally conceived. The five front pleats are said to represent Confucian virtues valued by the Samurai:

Jin Love and Sympathy
Gi Truth and Justice
Rei Courtesy
Chi Wisdom
Shin Faith

Nowadays, the dojos that still use hakama generally introduced when a student earns their black belt and/or becomes an instructor. And while I can appreciate their symbolism, I find that hakama interfere with instruction, for the some of the same reasons the Samurai wore them.

The pants hide the instructors hip and leg movements often making it difficult for students to see the subtleties of their technique. Instructors often have to pull their hakama back so students can see.


In my dojo, instructors wear black pants to represent the hakama. I feel this is sufficient in that it pays homage to the symbolic representation without impeding my teaching. That being said, my old Karate sensei would wear his hakama for belt gradings and important formal events. I wouldnt mind introducing the hakama in this capacity. They really convey an air of authority, highlighting the importance of the event.

The Hakama Debate: Tradition vs. Practicality | Pacific Wave Jiu-jitsu

I always take any article on a site from a modern, Western "jiu-jitsu" group who can't name the Japanese traditions they claim to be descendant from with regards to anything historical with a huge slab of salt and this is no different. There are a few issues with the article, namely the claim that "Hakama are worn by high ranking belts (usually instructors) in more traditional Japanese martial art schools" uh, no. In most classical schools that wear them, rank is nothing to do with it at all. You either wear them as part of the standard uniform (weaponry schools, typically), or wear them for embu (many jujutsu systems, some weaponry arts) all of which is regardless of rank. There are also issues with the "reasons the Samurai wore them" stated. As a result, what they do in their Western system is really no bearing on anything to do with Japanese (or Okinawan) arts at all.

That said, I will caution against copying entire articles from websites, as you're risking running afoul of the "fair use" clause of the TOS here.

What do you mean by that?

Others have already stated, but simply, Kano created the idea of Kyu and Dan ranking, which he took from the game of Go. All arts that use this ranking trace their usage to Judo, and Kano's implication of it.

This is something that you should read.
Its very on topic.
The Judo Rank System - Belts

On topic for the off-topic question of the origin of Dan ranking, but not so much for the thread. Especially when the question had been answered a few times already. That said, it's a better article from a better source.

After that...
View attachment 19540 Here is Dr.Kano in Hakama and Haori.

Kano based his Dan and Kyu in Japanese from the game of Go.

Go, known in Chinese as Weiqi and in Korean as Baduk, is an ancient board game for two players that is noted for being rich in strategy despite its simple rules.

In Go, rank indicates a player's skill in the game. Traditionally, ranks are measured using Gup or Kyu and Dan grades, a system which also has been adopted by many martial arts due to Kano.

Go Ranks

Rank Type Range Stage
Double-digit kyu 30-20k Beginner
Double-digit kyu 19-10k Casual Player
Single-digit kyu 9-1k Intermediate/Club Player
Amateur dan 1-7d (where 8d is special title) Expert Player
Professional dan 1-9p (where 10p is special title) Professionals
Note the Dan Ranks range from 1-9 with 10th being a special title similar to most martial arts ranking systems.

Kano's original use of the Kyu/Dan was eventually used by Funokoshi (Shotokan's founder) and made its way to Korea via the Koreans that trained in Shotokan and Judo (Yudo in Korean).

In KMAs
The Gup system was simply a reversal of the Kyu ranking. Starting at 10th Gup you progressed by counting down as you reach Dan you climbed back up the numbers.



* Kano's system was 1st to 4th Dan as testable ranks (or even instant promotion due to specific tournament rules) but with 5th or above being honorary Dans only.

The following ranks could not be earned. The could only be recognized or bestowed. Futhermore Kano said ranks higher then 10th exist.

However the Kodakan has only recognized 15 individuals as being 10th Dan in its history.

5th degree godan
6th degree rokudan
7th degree shichidan
8th degree hachidan
9th degree kudan
10th degree judan

So you linked the article but still needed to put all this down? I get that you want to be seen as knowledgable, but this is unnecessary and I'm not sure what the references to Korean arts has to do with anything

Originally, Menkyo (Korean this would be Meon Ho) a form of certificate(s) was used before the use of belts came into play.

It distinguished one's place in a school or art long before anyone ever thought about the use of belt ranking.

Typically classical schools (kory贖) usually use the menkyo system while schools which base their practice on bud forms ("path, or way") typically use the Kyu/Dan.
This is not always the case but it usually is.

Schools in Japan usually were classified either as kory贖 or Gendai bud, meaning "modern martial way", which are modern martial arts that were established after the Meji Restoration (1866-1869).

Kory贖 are the opposite: ancient martial arts established before the Meiji Restoration (sword arts, archery and battle field arts for example).

Hmm I don't want to take this much further off topic, but this is not really correct on a number of levels for the record.

A sense of historical fashion.

Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?

Which is why I am researching why Okinaiwan and Japanese KarateKa wore the garment and why some still do.

Because it's the clothing of the culture and because they choose to. It's really not much more complex than that.

The KMA of Gumdo wears it. Even the Korean National team.

Gumdo is a clear derivative of Kendo.

I invite you to go back to my first post here and read my comments on sword arts and invite you to realise that what Kumdo does is absolutely nothing to do with what a karate school does.

Why should I teach second hand okinaiwan forms, and award Japanese inspired ranks derived from Japanese Karate and Judo and ignore the rest of a rich fullness of a legacy and heritage?

Because you teach a Korean art? Simply put, if you're wanting to be like the Japanese arts, do a Japanese art. Otherwise, it's like a non-English country wearing bowler hats when they play cricket as they're very English and there's therefore a cultural heritage despite there being little connection.

All karate derived styles pretty much have dobok/gi & dee/obi in common. We dont use school patches or lettering on our doboks. I may choose formal attire for my students.

If you mean that you can choose what you want your students to wear in your school, you're absolutely right. Of course, you don't need any reason other than "I like this look".

View attachment 19541
View attachment 19542




Milos Stanic 4.dan promotes old okinawan empty hand and weapon traditions (shorin ryu karate & matayoshi kobudo)

He led his Dojo in his countries national team in the ITKF.
He is very traditional. There is nothing eclectic in his arts.

He kind of upsets the "particularly in Japanese and Okinawan systems... no black gi pants" position that you are holding.

Yeah I said it was fairly rare and that you basically didn't see it at all. And you've found one (1) guy who wears black pants but the rest of his school doesn't. So it's his personal choice, as head instructor of his school which means nothing when you were discussing "all the karate systems that wear black pants with their gi". As a result, no, Milos doesn't "upset the position".

Now there is a phrase found in Okinawa:
Like brother and sister, Karate and Kubodo always together.

I bring this up because shorin ryu karate & matayoshi kobudo are not eclectic or western or modern... and yet

I'm sorry, are you trying to educate me on such things here?

You will also see (below) a native okinaiwan wearing a black gi top and white gi pants while working with sai.


In 2002, Uechi-ryu published an article that he wrote about Kabudo weapons. This one about the Sai.
Sai: Okinawa Kobudo | Uechi-ryu Martial Arts

And, it can't be helped but noticed, other than a profile shot of Milos at the bottom, all shots from the article illustrating it (save the one you put in your post) show white pants with white tops hmm

Matayoshi Shinko... interesting fellow and important fellow. He was a karateka, a kobudoka and went to China to learn even more martial arts.
Was asked to perform Kabudo for Prince Hirohito.

Too bad he cant make his mind up about picking a color gi to wear. It totally messes with "uniformly uniform" image that we sometimes see and perhaps expect to see.

There is debate whether this is him or his son in the photo.
View attachment 19543

I'm pretty well aware of who Matayoshi Sensei was your comments about "too bad it totally messes" are rather misplaced. In fact, dark tops with light pants are far more common (particularly in Okinawan Kobudo arts) than your black pants approach and, it also must be noted, that it's not uncommon for head instructors to choose a slightly different uniform for themselves to the rest of the school which brings it all back to personal choice as the reason for any particular uniform in the first place.
 
OP
TSDTexan

TSDTexan

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
540
I always take any article on a site from a modern, Western "jiu-jitsu" group who can't name the Japanese traditions they claim to be descendant from with regards to anything historical with a huge slab of salt and this is no different. There are a few issues with the article, namely the claim that "Hakama are worn by high ranking belts (usually instructors) in more traditional Japanese martial art schools" uh, no. In most classical schools that wear them, rank is nothing to do with it at all. You either wear them as part of the standard uniform (weaponry schools, typically), or wear them for embu (many jujutsu systems, some weaponry arts) all of which is regardless of rank. There are also issues with the "reasons the Samurai wore them" stated. As a result, what they do in their Western system is really no bearing on anything to do with Japanese (or Okinawan) arts at all.

Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?

Because you teach a Korean art? Simply put, if you're wanting to be like the Japanese arts, do a Japanese art. Otherwise, it's like a non-English country wearing bowler hats when they play cricket as they're very English and there's therefore a cultural heritage despite there being little connection.

Yeah I said it was fairly rare and that you basically didn't see it at all. And you've found one (1) guy who wears black pants but the rest of his school doesn't. So it's his personal choice, as head instructor of his school which means nothing when you were discussing "all the karate systems that wear black pants with their gi". As a result, no,

The dobok/gi and dee/obi (used to represent rank) is not Korean but entirely Japanese. The Majority of our forms were Japanese in the 40, 50, 60s. were Japanese.

Later on Korean Karate became significantly more its own thing. New forms to distance from the old and a denial of where Itosu's pinan/heinan was learned from.

The Moo Duk Kwan states Hwang Kee brought them back from Manchuria. .. which could only have happened if He learned from a Japanese or Oki fellow.

You have to admit the founder of the Ji Do Kwon studied directly under G. Funikoshi and was a black belt in the art of shotokan karate.

While stuff was added to Hongsoodo and Tangsoodo to make it a KMA please don't pretend it happened apart from Japanese art sources.

The TKD art and the TSD art that we see today, would not exist if Okinawa had not sent Todi to Japan to be taught publically.

Who are you to say that Hakama are not part of my art's history?
Are you a KMA historian with specialization in uniforms of Koreans?
While you are knowledgeable in your area of expertise, a statement posed as a question:
Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?
that you make is conjecture and opinion.

Historical fashion that probably is not part of your (Korean arts) history?


Would be less of a implicitly dogmatic question and more accurate way to phrase that.

All I have to do is find a picture of Korean KarateKa or related arts in the Dojang or fields teaching students in such attire to knock the statement down.

It would be more helpful to answer the OP.
Why do some KarateKa wear Hakama?

In my research I have found KarateKa in Okinaiwa prior to 1958 wearing hakama which, which Is the year some okinaiwans brought Japanese reforms to Karate within a few styles... such as dan / kyu rank.

This suggests that the hakama is not related to Kyu/Dan ranking in Okiainwa at that time or prior.
 
Last edited:

Chris Parker

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
6,259
Reaction score
1,104
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I'm aware of the heritage of Korean arts (been through more than a few discussions of rather unlikely claims over the years), however what you're training in is identified as a Korean art, grown separate as you note. Again, if you're interested in a Japanese art, a Japanese identity, a Japanese cultural approach, and a Japanese look why not train in an actual Japanese art? Or, if you'd rather continue to train and teach your Korean art, why not embrace what that means?
 

Latest Discussions

Top