Why are escrima and wing chun often paired together?

vatesi

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Not just in ebmas, but in other schools too. People will also often suggest cross training in escrima online.

Why? How do the two systems compliment each other?
 

matsu

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i know very little about escrima but love the way it looks.
and like you i have heard many combos of the two... so great thread possibilties here..
looking forward to learning something from this one
thanks for asking the question

matsu
 

MJS

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Not just in ebmas, but in other schools too. People will also often suggest cross training in escrima online.

Why? How do the two systems compliment each other?

I dont do WC, however, I do train in Arnis, so I'll toss in my .02. My main art is Kenpo. I've found that Arnis blends in very well with my Kenpo. I'm not hindered in any way, as far as effectiveness or being able to transition between the two.

I also feel that when it comes to weapons, the FMAs are the best place to look. I say this because its a weapon based art. Sure, Kenpo has weapons disarms, and defense against a bunch of other attacks, but I like the FMAs, because you have the chance to look much deeper into the weapons area. During workouts, I've often taken Kenpo disarms and Arnis disarms, and compared the two. More times than not, I've found myself being more comfortable with the Arnis ones.

So....why would a WC student be interested in Kali, Arnis, Escrima? I'm going to say the weapons work. Additionally, there are a number of locks and some ground work in there as well.

IMO, the FMAs can pretty much blend with any art.
 

zepedawingchun

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Their principles, theories, and concepts are the same or very similar. Both are flowing arts, also use sensitivity in the training. Weapons use is similar too. The good thing about Kali (Escrima) is they teach weapons first, which helps the student get a good grasp of defending themselves much sooner than any other art.
 

yak sao

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From my understanding, how it came to be as far as WT/EBMAS linked up with escrima was back in the late 70's /early 80's, Rene Latosa was in the air force and stationed in Germany. Keith Kernsphect, student of Leung Ting, saw the similar principles of their two arts and saw this as a great learning opportunity for his organization as weapons training in WT comes very late in the curriculum.

I've trained only a small bit of Escrima, but I have found it to be exxtremly complimentary to my WT training.
The principles of intercepting, going forward, sensitivity,staying behind your weapon....like I said, I'm a greenhorn in Escrima, so I'm sure there's so much more.
 

geezer

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From my understanding, how it came to be as far as WT/EBMAS linked up with escrima was back in the late 70's /early 80's, Rene Latosa was in the air force and stationed in Germany. Keith Kernsphect, student of Leung Ting, saw the similar principles of their two arts and saw this as a great learning opportunity for his organization as weapons training in WT comes very late in the curriculum.

I've trained only a small bit of Escrima, but I have found it to be exxtremly complimentary to my WT training.
The principles of intercepting, going forward, sensitivity,staying behind your weapon....like I said, I'm a greenhorn in Escrima, so I'm sure there's so much more.

Yak's got that right. Because of the linking up between GM Rene Latosa and GM Kernspecht, most of the WT offshoots have a favorable view towards Escrima.... although whose escrima and how it's approached varies among the different WT organizations.

The other hugely important link, of course, was the earlier connection between Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto. That pretty much linked JKD (and by extension, WC) with FMAs in the public's perception. Although it should be noted that a lot of WC purists would rather that their students study WC alone.

As for myself, I'm another of those 'Chunners who also does Escrima, and I love both arts.
 

Vajramusti

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Steve and Yak have that right. WT and their offshoots are into teaching both. Not so for most other WC lines that I know of.
I have no formal training in Filipino escrima- but because of wing chun I find stick work easy to adapt to.
BTW several Indian arts have stick fighting, including Tamil "silamban" which was transported to Malaysia and is still there. Indian martial arts have had considerable influence historically in SE Asia.

joy chaudhuri
 

BloodMoney

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Yep guys above have nailed it really.

As someone who trains in both I would have to say that Escrima compliments Chun very nicely, at least our version of Chun with this version of Escrima, some Escrima looks very robotic, some of it is more sport related and thus doesnt bode well with my vision of Chun at least. The butterfly knife stuff from Chun has some similar movements to Escrima as well.

Also I would add that Escrima is arguably the most street lethal, effective and brutal of any weapon arts, as is Chun to striking arts. They are both efficient and direct, so even the philosophy behind them blends well.
 

graychuan

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Their principles, theories, and concepts are the same or very similar. Both are flowing arts, also use sensitivity in the training. Weapons use is similar too. The good thing about Kali (Escrima) is they teach weapons first, which helps the student get a good grasp of defending themselves much sooner than any other art.


Very well said. And I have always thought that the Lee/Inosanto connection also did a lot for the popularity of WC/Escrima. If my history is correct, Dan Inosanto was mainly a kempoist and FMA and was exposed to WC through Bruce. Likewise, Kempo and FMA Bruce got from Dan. I could be wrong. I practice both arts but separately. And feel no need to 'blend' the curriculum. In sparring or fighting...the techniques tend to blend themselves when I need them to. Same for the Yang Style TaiJiQuan that I have practiced along side my Kempo for the last 12-14 years.
 

zepedawingchun

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Very well said. And I have always thought that the Lee/Inosanto connection also did a lot for the popularity of WC/Escrima. If my history is correct, Dan Inosanto was mainly a kempoist and FMA and was exposed to WC through Bruce. Likewise, Kempo and FMA Bruce got from Dan. I could be wrong. I practice both arts but separately. And feel no need to 'blend' the curriculum. In sparring or fighting...the techniques tend to blend themselves when I need them to. Same for the Yang Style TaiJiQuan that I have practiced along side my Kempo for the last 12-14 years.

And that Wing Chun/Inosanto connection continues to this day by way of my Sifu Francis Fong. See the links below, the first link at the 4:55 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxr0s1zCyl8&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRwq0CjQ8jw&feature=player_embedded

The links above are a very good discussion by Guru Dan concerning JKD and Wing Chun. My sifu has been associated with Guru Dan since the early 1980's. Kali/JKD is taught at the Francis Fong Academy. Guru Dan actually comes into the FFA twice a year teaching seminars on JKD/FMA.
 

graychuan

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Now thats real cool, Zepe! My Guro is actually Filipino. Learned from his Uncle from the old country and he also studied at Inosanto's IMB academy in LA years ago. He used to live down the street from it. I bet we got a lot of the same drills...
 

Poor Uke

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I train both, although recently I have been finding myself more involved with Arnis than WC.

I think FMAs in general are more ameanable to cross training.

Something that did stike me that hasnt been mentioned is the inherent double handedness of both systems.
 

profesormental

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Short answer:

Because you can.

More elaborate answer:

Similar teaching methodology based on sensitivity and pattern drills. It has been done since Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto started.

Also lots of fun and looks cool. Who doesn't like playing with knives and machetes!?

:)
 

chinaboxer

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this is one of those tricky to answer questions. this is my opinion only..

first you have to ask yourself one question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost." (i am not talking about JKD), this is an important question, because it will reflect your martial arts journey and what you include or exclude when it comes to studying other methods.

if the answer is "no", then you can do whatever you want.

if the answer is "yes", then it is imperative that you adhere to the core concepts that make wing chun work. so if you decide to research other martial arts methods, it is also imperative that the SAME concepts must be adhered to as well ALL THE TIME.

so studying ANYTHING that teaches you to keep your elbows AWAY from your center is only going to degrade your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to come off your heel is going to hinder your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to swing your shoulders is going to make your wing chun that much more confusing.

so it goes back to answering the first question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost or not?"
 

Poor Uke

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if the answer is "yes", then it is imperative that you adhere to the core concepts that make wing chun work. so if you decide to research other martial arts methods, it is also imperative that the SAME concepts must be adhered to as well ALL THE TIME.

so studying ANYTHING that teaches you to keep your elbows AWAY from your center is only going to degrade your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to come off your heel is going to hinder your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to swing your shoulders is going to make your wing chun that much more confusing.

so it goes back to answering the first question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost or not?"

Personally I found that post more like a religious monologue than an attempt to address the question.
 

rooke

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I disagree with Chinaboxer on a few topics (and vice versa). HOWEVER, I agree with his previous post.

If you're doing a non-traditional Wing Chun, then mixing and matching is fine. But if you're trying to be pure Wing Chun, using differing body mechanics will only inhibit your Wing Chun body mechanics.

Wing Chun is straight line. Arnis/Escrima/Kali is circular. The footwork is different. How the elbows are held is different. Guarding on the center-line is conceptually shared, but implemented differently.

As a result, when you suddenly find yourself in certain reference points, your body may use a separate mechanic/stance/form than what one style (or another) may perform.

Now personally, I'm more of a Kali/Silat fellow who has recently (last couple years) studied JKD Concepts (and trapping). But as someone who's also spent years doing internal arts, not all mechanics blend. This becomes very obvious if you're doing Santi for 30 minutes a day, and then go back to Kali/Silat. It modifies your stance/movement significantly.

Rooke
 

wushuguy

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this is one of those tricky to answer questions. this is my opinion only..

first you have to ask yourself one question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost." (i am not talking about JKD), this is an important question, because it will reflect your martial arts journey and what you include or exclude when it comes to studying other methods.

if the answer is "no", then you can do whatever you want.

if the answer is "yes", then it is imperative that you adhere to the core concepts that make wing chun work. so if you decide to research other martial arts methods, it is also imperative that the SAME concepts must be adhered to as well ALL THE TIME.

so studying ANYTHING that teaches you to keep your elbows AWAY from your center is only going to degrade your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to come off your heel is going to hinder your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to swing your shoulders is going to make your wing chun that much more confusing.

so it goes back to answering the first question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost or not?"


I agree that adding escrima really changes the game. I had the chance to chi sau with a very experienced WC exponent the other day, and really felt the difference between a "pure" WC and one that had tendencies added to it from mixing with other arts. but then again I still consider myself a beginner, so it may just be that I'm easily impressed with good chi sau.

But as to why they're mixed together, I think there's many aspects why, but some are that of the similarity of the concepts, and the more modernized FMA approach and footwork compared to the classical WC approach to the concepts. In the overall game, I believe it improves one's skills greatly and adds flexibility. It may be in the end that it just opens our eyes to see how to better implement and understand WC theories.
 

chinaboxer

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Personally I found that post more like a religious monologue than an attempt to address the question.
like i said, this is a tricky question to answer, because not all kali/escrima methods are the same. "Why are escrima and wing chun often paired together?" hmmm..probably because on the outside, they look somewhat similar, they do have their own form of sensitivity drills, but in reality, the two methods are completely different. escrima is an "outside/in" method while wing chun is an "inside/out" method. the two structures are completely different, how to generate power is different. but like i said, i don't research kali and i do know there are several different systems out there on the subject, and maybe there is one method that does adhere to wing chun concepts, i don't know. all i'm saying is to be careful what you add to your wing chun training, because it can hinder your progress.
 
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geezer

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like i said, this is a tricky question ...all i'm saying is to be careful what you add to your wing chun training, because it can hinder your progress.

True words. Also spoken by one who has confronted this dilemma. If you check out Jin's website (very worthwhile) you'll see that he trains more than just pure WC. There's grappling, MMA/ring fighting, and Muay Thai too. And that's a handful. But in many cases it is possible to use other stuff to enrich your WC. Not necessary, perhaps, but not impossible either.
 

dungeonworks

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True words. Also spoken by one who has confronted this dilemma. If you check out Jin's website (very worthwhile) you'll see that he trains more than just pure WC. There's grappling, MMA/ring fighting, and Muay Thai too. And that's a handful. But in many cases it is possible to use other stuff to enrich your WC. Not necessary, perhaps, but not impossible either.

It just boils down to if you are a _ing __unner or a Martial Artist....simple as that.
 
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