Who gets to change a kata or technique…

[Dirty Dog]

Practice/training really is about repetition, though. Repetition is how skills improve. What is wrong with a kata that has repetition?

I believe this example is a TKD form, not karate.

You are correct. That's the same form we teach students starting on Day 1, though the details of something are slightly different. For example, we would tell him to chamber that punch lower.

It is intended to teach the new student one stance, one block and one attack. Using both sides of the body. While moving in multiple directions. It repeats because repetition is one of the ways people learn things.
It is intentionally simple. Because we want the new student to be able to learn it quickly.

In TKD, rank progression is typically linked to learning new forms (along with other requirements). In our system, that form is THE requirement for earning a dobak and white belt. They don't have to do it super well, just get through it (in front of the class, which makes it more difficult for a lot of students) without prompting.

So why would I want to start them off with a form that includes eight different stances, seventy three blocks and a hundred and forty seventeen attacks?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And, conversely, if I had a practical need to use a sword and was looking at two instructors of similar backgrounds, where one has real world experience and the other doesn't, I know whom I would choose.

Me too. However in the case of sword arts

• There aren't really any instructors in this day and age who have significant real world background. Maybe you can find someone who subdued a burglar with a bokken, but you aren't going to find much in the way of instructors who have fought duels with a real sword or fought on the battlefield with a real sword. Best you can hope for is to find a lineage where an instructor a few generations back did one of those things.
• Fortunately, the odds of having a practical need to use a sword in the modern day are practically nil.

Essentially, we (sword art practitioners) are like aviation enthusiasts in an era where airplanes have all been banned due to the pollution they cause, studying the manuals and practicing in simulators just for the fun of it and to get an idea of what it must have been like for real pilots.

Maybe. One never knows, and that's the point. What I do know is that I would prefer, if given the choice, to not wait until there is a crisis to discover that my simulator training was flawed and that my instructors, despite his insistence to the contrary, really didn't know what he was talking about.

Absolutely. If there's a choice, you want first hand experience or at least an immediate connection to someone who has first hand experience. But if there is no choice, then you have to do your best with what you can get.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Practice/training really is about repetition, though. Repetition is how skills improve. What is wrong with a kata that has repetition?

I believe this example is a TKD form, not karate.

It's also a basic Shotokan Karate form. Notice the skill difference, here. Or lack thereof.

This guy's going to break his hands punching that way, imho.

Oh, kata!

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's also a basic Shotokan Karate form. Notice the skill difference, here. Or lack thereof.

This guy's going to break his hands punching that way, imho.

Oh, kata!

That is closer to the way we teach it. What do you think is wrong with his punches?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That is closer to the way we teach it. What do you think is wrong with his punches?

I won't speak to what Oily Dragon sees, but to me it looks like the gentleman is flexing his wrist slightly downwards at the punch's full extension. Assuming that's not some illusion caused by the camera angle, this can lead to the wrist buckling when the fist impacts a solid object with full power. It probably won't break his hands, but he might sprain a wrist.

 

[Oily Dragon]

That is closer to the way we teach it. What do you think is wrong with his punches?

I prefer to show people than try to explain (I suck at it), but simply that is a bad angle to hit anything hard especially without a glove. It's also low and targets the center of the chest.

This is a problem in a lot of martial arts, these low, centered punches that avoid the face entirely, unless your opponent is two feet shorter.

Notice the angle difference here, these punches are better supported. This dude is aiming at his imaginary partner's jaw (and even he throw a few too low, but hey, that's kata for you.)

 

[Dirty Dog]

I won't speak to what Oily Dragon sees, but to me it looks like the gentleman is flexing his wrist slightly downwards at the punch's full extension. Assuming that's not some illusion caused by the camera angle, this can lead to the wrist buckling when the fist impacts a solid object with full power. It probably won't break his hands, but he might sprain a wrist.

I think it is the camera angle. That punch is taught as being aimed at the nice, soft solar plexus, and keeping the bones aligned is stressed.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I prefer to show people than try to explain (I suck at it), but simply that is a bad angle to hit anything hard especially without a glove. It's also low and targets the center of the chest.

It targets the solar plexus. Keeping the wrist and hand aligned is stressed. He's not perfect, but he's not going to hurt himself.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I think it is the camera angle. That punch is taught as being aimed at the nice, soft solar plexus, and keeping the bones aligned is stressed.

Could be. Even so, it wouldn't be too hard to miss the solar plexus and hit the xyphoid or ribs bare handed. His arm looks pretty developed so maybe he'll be fine. But as a general rule?

I'm biased towards headhunting martial arts, but I see your point, some schools just teach different targets. That's definitely something that changes in different katas in different schools. Some schools are more brutal than others. I know that's not supposed to be the TKD way.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Could be. Even so, it wouldn't be too hard to miss the solar plexus and hit the xyphoid or ribs bare handed. His arm looks pretty developed so maybe he'll be fine. But as a general rule?

As a general rule, he can hit a hard target like that and he will still be just fine.
My personal best is 20" of concrete with a strike like that. Last time we did a demo at one of the local Jr High schools, I did 16", ten times through the day. No injury.

 

[Oily Dragon]

As a general rule, he can hit a hard target like that and he will still be just fine.
My personal best is 20" of concrete with a strike like that. Last time we did a demo at one of the local Jr High schools, I did 16", ten times through the day. No injury.

You broke 20" of concrete striking horizontally at a 15 degree downangle?

Or Dim Mak style like in your photo?

 

[Steve]

Me too. However in the case of sword arts

• There aren't really any instructors in this day and age who have significant real world background. Maybe you can find someone who subdued a burglar with a bokken, but you aren't going to find much in the way of instructors who have fought duels with a real sword or fought on the battlefield with a real sword. Best you can hope for is to find a lineage where an instructor a few generations back did one of those things.
• Fortunately, the odds of having a practical need to use a sword in the modern day are practically nil.

Essentially, we (sword art practitioners) are like aviation enthusiasts in an era where airplanes have all been banned due to the pollution they cause, studying the manuals and practicing in simulators just for the fun of it and to get an idea of what it must have been like for real pilots.

Understood. Once again, I don't think we disagree on this. Relevant to this thread, the concern I have is, when we talk about martial arts and in particular styles where there is 100% reliance in simulation, the folks who train in these styles exhibit what I believe is an unearned degree of confidence in their own ability.

Pilots learning to fly planes in simulators in an era where real planes have been banned... I think should bake into their training a healthy respect for the very real possibility that they have it all wrong. Or that they may not have it all wrong on a macro level, but that they individually are not as skilled as they believe. Or, as you suggest, they disregard any concerns about whether they could pilot a real plane, because the entire exercise is academic, and so they focus on ancillary benefits of the activity.

So, again, trying to tie this back to the topic at hand, the stakes go up a little because folks are being told that they may, in fact, need to fly the plane at some point, and are assured that they will be well prepared if/when that time comes.

Absolutely. If there's a choice, you want first hand experience or at least an immediate connection to someone who has first hand experience. But if there is no choice, then you have to do your best with what you can get.

yes, and when you do the best with what you can get, you really should be realistic about what you're actually getting. Again, in the context of threads like this, I cringe when I read a post by folks who have proudly claimed they never fight, and have little or no experience in fighting, who are nevertheless very confident that what they learn and teach will be effective, for themselves and for their students.

All that said, I find this topic interesting. I know that some folks get defensive. At the very least, I appreciate your comments, though this really seems more directly related to the discussion in the Dunning-Kruger thread.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You broke 20" of concrete striking horizontally at a 15 degree downangle?

Or Dim Mak style like in your photo?

Pretty much irrelevant. Delivering a punch to the sternum with proper body mechanics is safe and effective.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Practice/training really is about repetition, though. Repetition is how skills improve. What is wrong with a kata that has repetition?

I believe this example is a TKD form, not karate.

I just use that form as one example. I'm talking about MA in general and not just Karate, or TKD.

The Yang Taiji only has one 108 moves form. In that form, the following 8 moves combo has been repeated 8 times.

- Ward off.
- Pull back.
- Press forward.
- Push.
- Double pulling.
- Single whip.

Please tell me if you think those 8 redundancy is necessary? How about just to repeat it 6 times, 4 times, 2 times, or even just 1 time instead?

If I just replace one of those redundancy into something else (because I don't want to create another new Taiji form), the form will contain more information but won't lose any old information.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

All change is good sometimes.
View attachment 27864

That’s still better efficacy than the flu vaccine in most years.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Pretty much irrelevant. Delivering a punch to the sternum with proper body mechanics is safe and effective.

A lot of TKD instructors break stuff for demos, it's kind of your calling card, so I was curious about what you meant and why you thought punching concrete was relevant.

If you're saying it's not, I agree.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe the form is designed for teaching and learning. It's not designed for training. Taking the form apart and repeat a combo sequence over and over should be the proper training.

If you use form to "record" information, you don't need to record the same information multiple times.

For example, I can repeat the following 3 moves combo

- hook punch.
- front kick.
- back fist.

20 times non-stop. My form doesn't need to record those 3 moves combo 20 times.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just use that form as one example. I'm talking about MA in general and not just Karate, or TKD.

The Yang Taiji only has one 108 moves form. In that form, the following 8 moves combo has been repeated 8 times.

- Ward off.
- Pull back.
- Press forward.
- Push.
- Double pulling.
- Single whip.

Please tell me if you think those 8 redundancy is necessary? How about just to repeat it 6 times, 4 times, 2 times, or even just 1 time instead?

If I just replace one of those redundancy into something else (because I don't want to create another new Taiji form), the form will contain more information but won't lose any old information.

How many times did you practice single leg takedown, before you got good at it? How many times do you continue to practice it, to maintain that skill? Surely it is more than once.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I just use that form as one example. I'm talking about MA in general and not just Karate, or TKD.

The Yang Taiji only has one 108 moves form. In that form, the following 8 moves combo has been repeated 8 times.

- Ward off.
- Pull back.
- Press forward.
- Push.
- Double pulling.
- Single whip.

Please tell me if you think those 8 redundancy is necessary? How about just to repeat it 6 times, 4 times, 2 times, or even just 1 time instead?

If I just replace one of those redundancy into something else (because I don't want to create another new Taiji form), the form will contain more information but won't lose any old information.

I disagree. Those repetitions are there because the posture is not the form. The transitions are where the rubber meets the road. Anyone can learn the postures, but just moving from posture to posture does not equal Tai Chi Chuan. I’m of the opinion that how one gets to the posture is more important than the posture itself, and far more difficult to learn.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe the form is designed for teaching and learning. It's not designed for training.

That is where we differ.