Who created the Te martial art?

[panzer86]

Who created the Te martial art?

 

[Same Trick]

Wasn’t it called “tode/(tote)”, where “to” referred to “Tang” as in Tang-dynasty of China, which would mean the origin/(creation) of Te was in China, and as your forum avatar suggests “shorin-ryu”, where Shorin means Shaolin - so Te came from Shaolin in China

 

[Buka]

Welcome to Martial Talk Panzer86.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Wasn’t it called “tode/(tote)”, where “to” referred to “Tang” as in Tang-dynasty of China, which would mean the origin/(creation) of Te was in China, and as your forum avatar suggests “shorin-ryu”, where Shorin means Shaolin - so Te came from Shaolin in China

Not quite. "Te" refers to the native Okinawan MA (which no one knows exactly what that looked like). "Tode" refers to the hybrid art, the combining of te and Chinese kung fu, and became the art now known as "karate."

This kung fu was not of direct Shaolin lineage from the northern Chinese temple in Henan, but mostly southern Chinese MA influence (though elements of northern style survived and were melded in with the southern style). The southern province of Fujian was the major source of Okinawa's exposure to Chinese ways. In those days, Okinawa was more closely connected with China than Japan.

 

[Same Trick]

Not quite. "Te" refers to the native Okinawan MA (which no one knows exactly what that looked like). "Tode" refers to the hybrid art, the combining of te and Chinese kung fu, and became the art now known as "karate."

This kung fu was not of direct Shaolin lineage from the northern Chinese temple in Henan, but mostly southern Chinese MA influence (though elements of northern style survived and were melded in with the southern style). The southern province of Fujian was the major source of Okinawa's exposure to Chinese ways. In those days, Okinawa was more closely connected with China than Japan.

Yes probably some sort of martial practice existed on Okinawa prior the so called 36 families from China(Fujian) settled there in late 1300’s, but that’s quite far back in history it’s probably impossible to find out what that martial practice consisted of, wrestling perhaps? the makiwara striking art it was not since that most certainly came about from inspiration by the satsuma Jigen-ryu sword school practice which came to the island about two hundred years after the Chinese settlers.
Okinawa kingdom also had diplomatic ties with Siam, that could maybe also be a source ?

 

[isshinryuronin]

You brought up some interesting topics, Same Trick.

Okinawa kingdom also had diplomatic ties with Siam, that could maybe also be a source ?

Okinawa did have close ties with Siam (now call Thailand) in the 1400 and 1500's. It is possible some MA influence from there made its way into Okinawan te. Researcher Itzak Cohen points to some similarity in fighting technique between Siam and Okinawa that's not seen in Chinese or Japanese methods.

far back in history it’s probably impossible to find out what that martial practice consisted of, wrestling perhaps?

Okinawa did have a type wrestling called tegumi that was popular with the country folks. Different from sumo, it utilized chokes and joint lock submissions. Little is known about its origin and early days so hard to say how much, if any, influence it had on te or karate development. Funakoshi mentions early rural karate students engaging in it as youths. A modernized form is still practiced as an Okinawan tradition.

the makiwara striking art it was not since that most certainly came about from inspiration by the satsuma Jigen-ryu sword school practice which came to the island about two hundred years after the Chinese settlers.

The Chinese enclave at Kume began at the end of the 1300's. Satsuma invaded Okinawa in 1609, so you're right on the timeline. But to say the least, Okinawa and Satsuma were not on the best of terms so teaching their family kenjutsu art at that time is doubtful. We do know in the mid 1800's "Bushi" Matsumura (teacher of Itosu and Kyan) was skilled in jigen-ryu.

Can't imagine how a sword art inspired hand conditioning on the makiwara. The Chinese did iron palm training, but no record of anything like a makiwara that I've read about. Got nothing on its origin as an Okinawan training method. Maybe some old master's wife got to him, so he went out back and made something to take his frustration out on.

I hope you continue your interest in TMA history and development. I recommend books/articles on the subject by Joe Swift, Nagamine Shoshin, and Patrick McCarthy.

 

[Same Trick]

Can't imagine how a sword art inspired hand conditioning on the makiwara. The Chinese did iron palm training, but no record of anything like a makiwara that I've read about. Got nothing on its origin as an Okinawan training method. Maybe some old master's wife got to him, so he went out back and made something to take his frustration out on.

I hope you continue your interest in TMA history and development. I recommend books/articles on the subject by Joe Swift, Nagamine Shoshin, and Patrick McCarthy.

Jigen ryu sword school’s very basic practice exercise is striking with wooden sword(bokken) (actually it’s more of a stick in Jigen ryu that is the length of a sword)
at a sturdy wooden pole, some claim this exercise might have inspired the invention of the karate makiwara.

Jigen-ryu Swordsmanship - Samurai of Culture

Thanks for the tips about the authors
But yes I do have a small book collection by the authors you mention and more, it’s stuffed away somewhere back in Sweden since some 25 years now…… (I hope it’s still there)