Which way to correctly do mawashi geri?

[Zero]

This kick is not taught in Okinawan GoJu, but is good for point sparring.

Seasoned, this is interesting and I note Haze states the same, I think. In my Okinawan goju club, we have always trained the high knee chambered front snap kick. I have only rarely competed in sport/point karate but this (coupled with alternating hook kick - same leg) is one of my most utilised kicks in full contact open karate tournaments and also kickboxing competitions. Our sensei, taught us this from pretty much day one.

We use it much like the jab, as granted, the other version described above, while slower and more telegraphed, when used in combinations and with timing is the more powerful for knockouts - much like traditional muay thai shin attack off back leg; it's the one you use when the opponent is set up or your timing is beautiful.

The great thing with the high knee front snap kick that comes straight up is that you can mix the same kicking leg with the hook kick to the other side of the head/jaw to catch opponent off guard. If you want to risk keeping just one foot on the ground that bit longer you can do this without even dropping you leg (I used to train this a lot after watching it in movies but never tried it in competition(!)). Also the front kick is often hard to see coming when mixed in with punches and then stepping just out of punching range as it comes right up the centre line and then the foot or shin comes in from the side, beautiful kick....I know you know all this, more for the benefit of the others progressing so they don't just stick or revert solely to the "more traditional"(?) hip/pelvis swinging motion, which is not as fast.

Anyway, all I meant to say was that, we havedone this in our curriculum and my sensei would have used this circa 30 years (although I recal way back he did a training session with Bill Wallace), so maybe this is where this kick has come into our style if you feel this "ain't legit" Okinawan....
Best

 

[Haze]

Zero,

Snap Front kick is taught in Goju, we were talking about the mawashi geri/round house kick, not found in traditional goju kata. If the kata holds the key elements of a style you would have to look at the kata and see what is deemed as the important concepts of the style.

No hook, round house, axe, cresent kicks in traditional goju.

These were all taught to me but not really part of the style.

 

[72ronin]

We bring it up at the side.

We have an ex tkd player in our group (shotokan) and he chambers in front of himself, its so easy to jam him up and send him flying backwards during sparring.

Besides, chambering to the side brings a lot more bodyweight into the kick and opens the hips for a better horizontal strike with the foot.

Chambering in front of yourself produces a flick instead of a slam..

There used to be a saying, "kick as if you are lifting your leg over a chair to the side of you".

Bodyweight transfer is imperitive to produce an effective/powerful strike.

If your interest is point sparring then the flicky/tricky stuff is fine, but for power etc you must train the trad way

Enjoy your training Blade, and congrats once again for your recent grading.

Oss

 

[Blade96]

We bring it up at the side.

We have an ex tkd player in our group (shotokan) and he chambers in front of himself, its so easy to jam him up and send him flying backwards during sparring.

Besides, chambering to the side brings a lot more bodyweight into the kick and opens the hips for a better horizontal strike with the foot.

Chambering in front of yourself produces a flick instead of a slam..

There used to be a saying, "kick as if you are lifting your leg over a chair to the side of you".

Bodyweight transfer is imperitive to produce an effective/powerful strike.

If your interest is point sparring then the flicky/tricky stuff is fine, but for power etc you must train the trad way

Enjoy your training Blade, and congrats once again for your recent grading.

Oss

Thanks so much

Yeah, you and my sandan and sensei say the same - The side chamber.

btw I dont have a bag or mat or anything so I use the back of my computer chair - LOL my poor chair hehe

I must say, I cant pick a fave kick cause I love them all. But for the here and now I'm into the steo forward on right leg spin to the right and kick backwards / ushiro geri combo w/left leg.

Thanks for your help again my fellow Shotokanny friend.

Thanks for congrats on my grading as well.

Osu!

 

[blindsage]

We bring it up at the side.

We have an ex tkd player in our group (shotokan) and he chambers in front of himself, its so easy to jam him up and send him flying backwards during sparring.

Besides, chambering to the side brings a lot more bodyweight into the kick and opens the hips for a better horizontal strike with the foot.

Chambering in front of yourself produces a flick instead of a slam..

There used to be a saying, "kick as if you are lifting your leg over a chair to the side of you".

Bodyweight transfer is imperitive to produce an effective/powerful strike.

If your interest is point sparring then the flicky/tricky stuff is fine, but for power etc you must train the trad way

Enjoy your training Blade, and congrats once again for your recent grading.

Oss

Guess you've never seen what is now being called the "Brazilian" kick?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3RQNMrOgRY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si_xkVbDYf8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cNUkGhV2q4&feature=related

 

[72ronin]

Pfff, Ive been catching people in sparring with that kick for years, you set it up by throwing a few front kicks first. then change it up mid kick once theyre lulled into dropping the gaurd to intercept the front kick....
Who's the idiot that coined it the brazilian kick? its just a change-up front to round kick!! its been around for ages man.

Now use your you-tube jutsu to look at cro cops kick ko's for egsample, you'll notice they are what im saying.. This change-up kick is not gauranteed to KO nearly as much.. Why is that?.. Good for you, you just learnt something

 

[72ronin]

Seriously, Rick Roufus was doing this 20 something years ago? the list goes on and on, why the hell name the kick "brazilian Kick" ?

Does brazilian gold shine brighter than USA gold or something lmao. pfff, latest fad's, what can ya do

 

[blindsage]

Did I offend you?

Of course a full round house is going to have more power, the only point I was trying to make was that a round-house that comes up in the front first can still have power, even knockout power.

It's being called the 'brazilian kick' these days because the use of the kick was popularized by a couple of Brazilian fighters in kickboxing and MMA competitions. Yes, it's been around a long time, I learned it when I was training in Kyokushin 15 years ago. Kyokushin fighters have been doing this kick since at least the '70's.

 

[Zero]

Zero,

Snap Front kick is taught in Goju, we were talking about the mawashi geri/round house kick, not found in traditional goju kata. If the kata holds the key elements of a style you would have to look at the kata and see what is deemed as the important concepts of the style.

No hook, round house, axe, cresent kicks in traditional goju.

These were all taught to me but not really part of the style.

Thanks Haze, yeah, I was also refering to the mawashi (with a snap motion from high chambered knee, and not the traditional front snap kick, ie foot coming straight out to opponent away from body, which I don't see as a conventional head strike, although can be used as such straight on.
Happy the hooks and axe kicks were taught to us though but if we agree with the kata holding the traditional style's elements, must have been on an extra-curricular basis!

 

[Zero]

We bring it up at the side.

We have an ex tkd player in our group (shotokan) and he chambers in front of himself, its so easy to jam him up and send him flying backwards during sparring.

Chambering in front of yourself produces a flick instead of a slam..

If your interest is point sparring then the flicky/tricky stuff is fine, but for power etc you must train the trad way

Enjoy your training Blade, and congrats once again for your recent grading.

Oss

Ronin, I admit it is funny to see the kick, which has been around as long as any other, termed "brazilian" but I've heard this for a while now, and I don't really care. But I have never been jammed, honest, in years of fighting in using a front chamber (I was even doing this just before to see whether I was coming in from the side but pretty much knee comes straight up). If you mix this in with combos and your timing is fine I am puzzled why jamming, which can happen to any kick, would be occuring any more so for this; maybe your tkd guy needs to work on his timing or how he is working this kick in to his sparring?? Or maybe he is executing when too close in? I dunno.
Also, I admit it doesn't have the power of a more rotated approach, and even less than a back foot round house, but this kick is not just for sport/point fights. I have fought full contact for years and when you target the jaw and impact with the "knuckles" of your foot you either rock (good for set up) or KO someone.
Switching to the reverse, ie a hook kick to other side of head/jaw also produces knockout when heel of foot hooks into the back of the jaw bone.

 

[72ronin]

I appologise Blindsage, directing my comments at you was un-warranted, sorry mate.

What i will give the change-up kick is that it hits the target completely un-expected and rocks the opponent as Zero stated. And ofcourse as was shown, can effect knockout.

The jamming of the ex TKD player, i guess he has a leaning tendency aswell, i can read this well as he only doesnt lean with the front kick so i have become accustom to reading his movements somewhat.
Its not that he chambers slowly, just that he will lean aswell and theres a split second window there to shoot in and jam him up and throw a shot etc. I once sent him airborn a couple feet or so as his chambered leg acted like a spring lol.

I would say leaning back and chambering in front sets someone up to be taken down or jammed up and eat a shot too easily, with the chambering at the side and rotating the body through the kick we dont have to lean at all and are more ready to abbort the kick with balance and follow up techs etc For egsample check out how the so called "superman punch" is thrown.. with a side chamber of the right leg, which throws power due to body allignment up into the right hand, there really is nothing new under the sun..

With the follow up hook kick, ive found that they are out of range by then. Meaning if weve done a change up front to round and they have reacted in time, to go to hook from there is pointless in my experience.
However if you throw the said change up kick and retract before full extension on the round kick and go to hook kick immediately, then it can become effective.

Personaly, i would prefer 5th kyu's and under to prepare themselves with strong techniques and then they can bring in the tricky stuff after that. I should also mention that throwing many change up kicks has seemed to get at my right knee joint at times also, its quite a strain on the ligaments/tendons after some time.. Although i do carry a slight knee injury from football when i was younger.

Once again, I do appologise Blindsage,
cheers
72ronin

 

[Blade96]

well thanks again, people, was working on mawashi geri with a BB and he spent much of his time working on the other yellow belt because mawashi geri, frankly, I was doing better with it.

Had us step back with jodan age uke, then mawashi geri and backfist, then oi zuki - was fun

 

[Blade96]

Oh btw more about my mawashi geri

I sparred a little with my sandan friend this evening and he was teaching me some stuff and I caught him in the stomach but more on the side with a good one. He said laughing 'no way are you getting away with that' and he caught my next one I did and planted me on the floor so fast I took root

needless to say I learned pretty fast to make my mawashi geri like a snap kick more but done sideways so I could pull my lower leg back pretty darn fast so he couldnt grab it (he didnt catch it after) =]

He said I'm getting better at it! :angel:

and you folks here at MT helped me.

Cheers!

~ Blade ~

 

[Zero]

Blade, experience from sparring is a great way to learn and improve one's technique.
As you have figured, snapping back the kick (just like with a punch) is important to make sure you aren't grabbed/trapped and sweeped.

The other reason, again just like a jab that you don't leave hanging out there, is that snapping the kick back quickly generates dynamic power and speed (if you have obtained the balance, timing and experience/judgement) to execute another strike in succession.

Also on this, you should be executing all such kicks so you are in a positon to deliver a punch/thrust/palm strike if on execution of your kick your opponent has closed the gap and is in the process of trapping your leg for a sweep or is otherwise in range. If you do get your leg cuaght again, and hey, happens to everyone from time to time, don't taker it and just get swept. Appreicate control is required for sparring but you can (i) lean into your opponent and grab them back to prevent the sweep, (ii) if the sweep is on and you're going down, retain hold of them and execute a sacrifice throw to take your opponent down and over you (iii) punch them straight in the face with your lead fist if they are in this range and (iv) also use all your leg strength to downwards yank your leg out of their grasp.

Keep the flow alive at all times on all movements.

This is good for karate but also essential to get the hang of if you ever want to branch out or get into mma equivalents later.

 

[Guliufa]

Zero,

Snap Front kick is taught in Goju, we were talking about the mawashi geri/round house kick, not found in traditional goju kata. If the kata holds the key elements of a style you would have to look at the kata and see what is deemed as the important concepts of the style.

No hook, round house, axe, cresent kicks in traditional goju.

These were all taught to me but not really part of the style.

Crescent Kick is in Suparinpai.

But correct about the others.

Goju Ryu teaches Front Kick - Mae Geri, Joint Stomping Kick - Kansetsu Geri and Crescent Kick - Mikazuki Geri.

 

[Martin h]

Chambering to the side gives more power but is slower.
Chambering straight forward is faster but has less power.

Either version (or anything in-between) works if you hit, but more power lets you smash through a block.
chambering to the front has been developed more for point fighting.

The correct way is whichever way knocks your opponent down/out.

Anything else is just stylistic nitpicking.

and for a ridiculous good example of oldschool mawashi geri from shotokan:

(not exactly Is I would do it in kyokushin sparring, but still awesome)

 

[Blade96]

Ours definitely wants oldschool traditional mawashi geri. and that means chambering to the side.

 

[shihansmurf]

I teach both versions. I teach the side chamber position to my begining students and switch to the front chamber for my more advanced students. I also use both chambers depending on the target I'm tyring to hit. I use the front chamber for kicks to inside targets like the groin, gut, and (on the rare occasion I go for it) the face. I use the side chamber to attack the legs and kidney. The extra speed is helpful on inside attacks and I like the extra power on the outside moves. Like anything else, its good to have extra tools in your kitbag.

Just my view
Mark

 

[Blade96]

My brown belt - the one i was messing around with with doing katas with our eyes closed - said when i was working on mawashi geri that some people actually fell learning this kick cause they'd kick too hard or spin too hard or too fast or something - and fall down. I didnt. She said she was amazed with how nicely I'm taking to this kick. She also saw how much I enjoy it!

 

[Laus]

I've always seen it to the side, never to the front. The way I've been trained tells me that starting to the front would be ineffecient, because it would take that much longer to execute - I'm not sure why you would bother raising your knee to the front if you were going to move it to the side anyways - but if there's anything I've learned its that there is more than one right way to do pretty much everything, and that just happens to be the one I was taught.

From reading the above posts I can see why going straight to the side would not always be the best plan, and now that I think of it, it might make it easier to turn your leg over if your hips are tight. Also, raising the knee could be useful for training purposes as practice for a situation where you meant to execute a mae geri then for whatever reason wanted to switch to a mawashi.