When the kata is applied to self defense

[Gerry Seymour]

There is more to self defense than fighting

That depends where you draw the borders of self-defense - there are different working definitions people use for that term. Some include just the physical defense. Some include after-defense psychology and legal issues. Some include prevention. Some go so far as to include basic safety measures (seat belts, locking the door, etc.).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I say "beaten up" I'm talking about how you feel after a night of hard rolling or randori. Yeah, you're probably not going to the hospital, and you can go to work the next morning without wearing makeup, but you're definitely going to feel like you've been through the tenderizer. Nothing's worse than a big sweaty fat man having you in side control.

You can get that worn out without competition/resistance sparring. Heck, I've worked myself to exhaustion just doing drills. I think the key difference is that the sweaty fat man who has you in side control won't let you out unless you make him - and he'll use everything he knows (within reason) to stop you.

Which also partially explains why some people avoid such martial arts. The sheer amount of physical contact can be extremely awkward for some people, despite such training being highly beneficial.

I'm not sure the level of contact in Judo is much different from the level of contact, say, in NGA. And NGA can be taught in a much more "traditional" manner than I've seen Judo use, with all the accompanying issues.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But it doesn't work on every one, unless your an elite level fighter, otherwise you run much the same risk of just being out gunned by some big guy,

We had a dojo invasion, were two mma guys all ripped and shredded, decided to pay is a visit and challenge and or humiliate d us.

They made the mistake of doing this on the night Floyd attended,Floyd is built like a cruiser weight boxer and covered in gangsta tats, and has had not a few actual street fights.

You could see the apprehension in the mma guys face as they circled each other, he had come to scare girls and middle aged accountants and he had got a guy, 4inches taller and thirty pounds of muscle heavier. It didn't last long, Floyd but him with a clubbing right and he fell over. The other guy didn't want to fight now and they left.

Can I borrow Floyd if those guys show up over here?

 

[Hanzou]

You can get that worn out without competition/resistance sparring. Heck, I've worked myself to exhaustion just doing drills. I think the key difference is that the sweaty fat man who has you in side control won't let you out unless you make him - and he'll use everything he knows (within reason) to stop you.

Yes that is the key difference, as well as the physical contact. While that fat guy is laying on you trying to suffocate you, you have to find a way to escape while using the least amount of energy possible. On the flip side, if you achieve a dominant position on your larger partner, you need to learn how to maintain that position without them using their larger size to throw you off of them.

Which is why I strongly favor women learning Bjj, since it teaches them how to counter or escape bigger and larger people attempting to force their will upon them. Some of the women I rolled with were quite adept at slipping away from my set ups despite my superior strength and weight.

 

[DaveB]

The problem is when their instructor starts feeding them nonsense about their ability to take down trained fighters utilizing hidden techniques within their kata or other antiquated training method. Or that if they just train more they can easily stop that MMA guy or wrestler trying to take their head off.

Who? Who is saying these things, now in 2018?
I'll be very very surprised if you can name more than one person. I doubt you can name anyone.

Further, a random boxer saying that he gained something from taking dance lessons is an irrelevant point that doesn't really change the general argument that martial arts that perform extensive amounts of kata have performed rather poorly against martial arts that don't perform extensive amounts of kata.

No, it demolished the position you took and until now actively defended that only directly martial training was worthwhile.

But fine, let's stick to kata based arts can't fight because they do kata.

So you're not a fan of Kyokushin karate?
Or is the fact that they have a kata syllabus another irrelevant point?

Again, I dismissed that fact because it was irrelevant. I'm sure no one told that boxer that he could find hidden techniques, or learn to grapple like a Bjj practitioner from his dancing. However, that is exactly what is being told to martial arts students around the world about their version of dancing within their martial arts.

Again told by who? When?
You know "exactly" what is being said so you should know who said it.

Again, Youtube is simply evidence to support an argument. You're free to use other types of evidence if you wish. For example, I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that Uchi-Uke is being used in fights "everywhere" like you claimed. If it is, evidence of your claim should be easy to find. Don't worry, unlike you, I'm perfectly fine if you use a few videos to support that claim.

Have you never.seen a vertical forearm used to stop a Hook?
You've never seen a wing chun guy use a tan sau during chi sau practice? (you posted one earlier).
Neither example even gets into the broader applications of that movement (like the uppercut or shoulder lock), or even combative usage of the simple version.

But now you cry "that's not uchi uke" and the next 20 pages are spent trying to make you understand the principle of layered application or just defining what a principle is.
You are not the original thinker you imagine.

No, if you want to find it you do your own research. I did mine and I know that I can see the technique in action whenever I feel like it by just getting in the ring and sparring. If you can't that is your problem.

I asked to know what you thought was unrealistic in bassai dai to get a feel for your viewpoint and everything you've said since confirms what you're answer told me: those arts are not for you.

 

[Steve]

There is more to self defense than fighting

Maybe. But i would consider fighting a salient characteristic of self defense. Others have recently insisted that self defense and fighting are synonymous . I think fighting skills are salient but maybe #5 on the list. Still on the list though.

 

[Buka]

A cool thing about being in a later time zone than everyone else is getting up in the morning and finding five pages of comments to read over my first cup of coffee.

The fact that it's all crazy people is neither here nor there.

And I salute all of you, especially those who do not rise to take bait.

 

[DaveB]

Personally, I think many ancillary activities can contribute to being better at something . for example, a lot of guys feel yoga is very synergistic with BJJ.

But I also think the proof is in tje pudding. Dancing helped your boxer be a better boxer. We can't say it didn't because he was an excellent boxer. There is evidence.

The converse is when a person declares that something (kata) helps them to fight better, when the assertion that they fight well is still in question.

Said another way, we can see from lyoto machida that kata wasn't the thing that helped him apply his considerable karate skills against other, well trained opponents. In order to bring his karate skill to bear, he added a competitive training model to his karate and also crosstrained in other, complementary styles.

Did kata help or hinder? Who knows . If he says it helps, who am I to say? But I think there is evidence that kata wasn't the difference because the things that did clearly help machida are the same things that produce predictable, reliable, repeatable, and demonstrable results in literally any person who trains in the same way, who do not do kata.

Edit to add an analogy, just because. If I weigh 400 lbs when you see me and then 2 years later I weight 185 lbs, you might say, "hey man. Congrats! How'd you do it?" I could say, "dude, I owe it all to meditation. 100%. Oh, I also started eating clean and training BJJ." Was it really the meditation? Maybe that helped me stay committed to training and eating healthy but the diet and exercise probably had a more direct influence on the weight loss.

And herein lies the problem with this tired old argument:

Nobody is saying otherwise.

Everything you said is perfectly reasonable and correct.

The part that is dumb (of the argument not of Steve's post) is saying that karate isn't good because they kata too much.

People lose fights because they are less well trained or less gifted than their opponents. If you do too much kata and not enough sparring before a fight that's on.you, not on.karate .

If you do.too much running and not enough sparring you are equally likely to lose but it doesn't make running bad.

This is not rocket science. It's not even high school science. But the urge to generalise into simple stereotypes is so strong that simple logic seems beyond some people.

 

[Steve]

And herein lies the problem with this tired old argument:

Nobody is saying otherwise.

Everything you said is perfectly reasonable and correct.

The part that is dumb (of the argument not of Steve's post) is saying that karate isn't good because they kata too much.

People lose fights because they are less well trained or less gifted than their opponents. If you do too much kata and not enough sparring before a fight that's on.you, not on.karate .

If you do.too much running and not enough sparring you are equally likely to lose but it doesn't make running bad.

This is not rocket science. It's not even high school science. But the urge to generalise into simple stereotypes is so strong that simple logic seems beyond some people.

You can, however, say with confidence that you will lose fights if you don't fight enough. It's not too much kata that is the problem. It's not enough fighting.

 

[Buka]

You can, however, say with confidence that you will lose fights if you don't fight enough. It's not too much kata that is the problem. It's not enough fighting.

And therein lies the rub.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A cool thing about being in a later time zone than everyone else is getting up in the morning and finding five pages of comments to read over my first cup of coffee.

The fact that it's all crazy people is neither here nor there.

And I salute all of you, especially those who do not rise to take bait.

And a hearty good morning to you, my friend.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

removed all kata from the system, and it remains a highly effective style.

If you are a wrestling coach and you teach 200 different throws to your students. How do you help your students to remember it? I mean just "remember" it and nothing more. It's just like a text book and has nothing to do with training.

You can use approach such as:

1. 1 dictionary - label as throw 1, throw 2, ... throw 199, throw 200 (this is do nothing approach).
2. 6 dictionaries - divide throws into 4 sides and 2 doors and create 6 different categories.
3. 1 book - link 200 throws into 1 form.
4. 6 books - link 200 throws into 6 forms (4 sides and 2 doors).

Which method do you prefer (1, 2, 3, or 4)? Why?

 

[pdg]

This thing is devolving faster than expected. I am not on the judges selection committee, but from incontestable opinions I have gathered a sliding scale of possible facts; the first being that @Hanzou and @Martial D were the first to volunteer with the selection committee and have in fact been selected. There is now a fierce fight for the third judges slot. The third incontestable opinion is that @JowGaWolf was disqualified by unanimous vote of the first two judges and that being thought underhanded by the committee, @JowGaWolf may be selected to referee. That has been contested by a faction of @gpseymour supporters who may win out that position for him after all. It gets worse.

@elder999 hung back until he could quietly sneak himself into the rules committee, even without formal consent of the Rules Committee selection board. I'm told they didn't have enough opinions one way or the other to stop him, and that's a fact. He then demanded @now disabled be on the Rules Committee as well, along with @Steve. @pgsmith and @Kung Fu Wang will be backups if they agree to give up all facts in their possession first.

If that wasn't enough, some guy with the crazy name of @oftheherd1 will be the fact checker with two as yet unnamed scribes and a pharisee to assist him.

What a mess.

I'm entirely unsure whether to be offended at being left off the list, or grateful that I'm under the radar...

 

[pdg]

I never studied Kyokushin, so I don't know. However, I have practiced its parent system, and observed their sparring and the end results of their training. Despite their use of kata, the style produces some excellent fighters.

Can you provide evidence that the production of excellent fighters is despite their use of kata?

Or maybe something like a kyokoshin school that has shed it's kata and since produced more and better fighters?

Or maybe them using kata has helped their fighters with developing balance and other control over their bodies...

 

[Steve]

Can you provide evidence that the production of excellent fighters is despite their use of kata?

Or maybe something like a kyokoshin school that has shed it's kata and since produced more and better fighters?

Or maybe them using kata has helped their fighters with developing balance and other control over their bodies...

I may be missing your point, but there are literally thousands of excellent fighters who do not use kata training in combat sports throughout the world.

 

[drop bear]

You make a good point there about learning ...

Just a thought ...the arts that do have forms or Kata (as in grouped together and named) could it be possible that when they were first grouped or taught or "invented" (can't think of a better word) the people that were students then would have known what they were for as in application of same ...ie a strike or a cut they more than likely would have seen so the response to same would be easier to put into context ..or the response to a thrusting stab with a sword or the response to a fast drawn sword etc et al they more than likely would have seen that and could place it easier than possibly folks today?

Maybe just maybe if say for example in my art someone says Shomenuchi strike yes it based on the sword strike (overhand to the head) so folks think ok never seen that or can't picture it etc ...how about if it were said ok replace sword with bottle in an overhead strike that folks might be able to equate more to ...the response is the same (ok there are more than one) just the weapon is different

Nah. The timing is out. If I tried to hit a guy with a sword it would look nothing like the kata.

You see that in the knife vs reality videos.

Which means that you are developing skill in a situation that is never going to happen.

 

[drop bear]

And your point is?

That we can pick consistent methods that lead to good fighting.

Sparring is pretty consistent. Kata isn't.

This is how we would build a system based on evidence rather than anecdotes.

That way if effective fighting is the goal we can separate must include from might include.

So even lomenchenko and dance. Would be might include. It worked for him but it hasn't worked consistently for a range of fighters.

Therefore that would be might include.

 

[drop bear]

Ok so how are the basics of fighting in that style taught and how are the techniques that are used in fighting taught

You are basing everything you say on fight fight fight ......ok that may be some peoples goal but not everybody does MA to fight etc

@jobo made a good point in the real world all you need to be is better than the guy who attacks you ............now is every attacker going to be this highly trained BJJ or MMA etc fighter ?

Fight is shorthand for successful application. It could be applied to any activity. If we were discussing kata and swimming.

Swimming would be the ultimate goal.

Martial arts isnt some magical activity that doesn't follow the rules of any other activity.

 

[pdg]

I may be missing your point, but there are literally thousands of excellent fighters who do not use kata training in combat sports throughout the world.

And there are a great many who do use kata.

That was my point.

Now, I have to be a bit balanced here...

If an art exclusively practices kata and never does anything remotely like sparring I can see that it wouldn't be much use in a live situation. Say me doing tkd - if I only did patterns with no work on conditioning or sparring it simply wouldn't work.

Likewise, an art could ignore kata completely, say just do mitts and pads and running about. Like taebo. Is that any better?

From previous comments, it must be because there's no kata - but I have to disagree and say it's equal.


Now go to an art that ignores kata and only does live work - I can see that's probably quicker to fight than another art that balances kata and live work.

But, it'd be very unlikely to grab my interest. I'm not in it to fight, so it wouldn't fit me.

I contend it's much faster for me to reach any effectiveness with my doing patterns (kata) mixed with other conditioning and live work, because I do it.

100% live work? I probably wouldn't turn up, so guess what?

It'll never work

 

[drop bear]

That depends where you draw the borders of self-defense - there are different working definitions people use for that term. Some include just the physical defense. Some include after-defense psychology and legal issues. Some include prevention. Some go so far as to include basic safety measures (seat belts, locking the door, etc.).

I don't think it is a distinction to be made from kata though.

I haven't seen a lock your doors or deescalation kata. So unless it helps in some mysterious way it is designed to assist with fighting.