The "Tony Sirico" technique and its relation to Karate kata.

[ThatOneCanadian]

(I don't know how to resize the image so my apologies for the enormous size.)

Tony Sirico (the actor who played Paulie Walnuts on The Sopranos) is a convicted felon who always keeps his hands up and in front of him. He does this so that he is always prepared to defend himself if need be.

His hand position looks somewhat similar to the kamae position for Chinte, a kata known for its supposedly effective "self defense" techniques.

These types of kamae positions appear in kata such as Jion, Jitte, etc. There has been a lot of debate as to what the application is for these kamae positions, but my personal belief is that they represent natural hand positions that one might need to spring into action from. I have seen security/policemen/etc. adopt these types of postures on numerous occasions, and my research on these hand positions turns up a similar answer, i.e. they keep their hands "at the ready" in case someone decides to attack them.

Is this a reasonable interpretation of what these kamae positions mean? Are these positions indeed effective in this purpose? Look at kata such as Naihanchi/Bassai or ITF forms like Won-Hyo/Hwarang and you will see similar positions.

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this, whether you study TMA or not.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As I have been learning it, kamae is personal. There's a general shape to the hands based on the kata, and in sparring, kamae is used as well, but it's not enforced as strictly, as say, stances. Part of this, I am told, is because Okinawans recognized that body types differ, and part of it because Okinawans are more relaxed in general and less willing to strictly codify degrees of angle and inches of distance and so on. "About" is often heard with regard to those things.

With regard to self-defense techniques, a kamae such as used in kata is not the hand position I would choose. As you pointed out, hands in a relaxed but non-threatening position, still ready for immediate use, is probably best. I do not know that I would keep my hands that low, but that's just a personal feeling for me.

A traditional kamae, depending on the type, could easily be seen as what it is to even a person who doesn't know martial arts but has seen movies as a 'ready to fight' position and thus, an invitation. As you see in the photo you provided, not only are his hands low, but he is doing something with them. Non-threatening, it is an 'understandable' reason for him to have his hands there. The subconscious mind would no doubt evaluate that and mark it not a threat. Unless the conscious mind had experience and knew better, of course.

I tend to favor a hand position that also marks me as the peacemaker in the eyes of any potential witnesses. Hands up and open, palms extends, and using my voice to say "Please sir, I do not want any trouble" or words to that effect. I keep my voice humble and assume a non-threatening posture. But always remain ready. I want the police report to say that multiple witnesses said the old man was just trying to resolve the issue peacefully and the young punk took a swing and somehow got his jaw broken.

 

[MadMartigan]

I see where you're coming from, and it seems possible to me that this tactic could be the inspiration for some of these 'ready' stances. (Though my guess would be there's more likely some cultural significance rather than tactical).

On the nit-picking side, I'll point out that the Chang Hon (ITF) color belt forms where the hands most closely resemble the photos you posted are actually Jhoon Gun and Toi Gye. (In Won Hyo the hands are around mouth level, and Hwa Rang they are crossed below the belt).

This brings me to Bill's point about strict codified hand positions vs 'around' positions that best suit the user. I'm guessing he and I agree that this strict adherence in some circles to rigid placement of non-combat positions (unlike say, the best angle for a blocking arm etc) is like missing the view of the forest because of all the trees in your way.

 

[ThatOneCanadian]

I see where you're coming from, and it seems possible to me that this tactic could be the inspiration for some of these 'ready' stances. (Though my guess would be there's more likely some cultural significance rather than tactical).

On the nit-picking side, I'll point out that the Chang Hon (ITF) color belt forms where the hands most closely resemble the photos you posted are actually Jhoon Gun and Toi Gye. (In Won Hyo the hands are around mouth level, and Hwa Rang they are crossed below the belt).

This brings me to Bill's point about strict codified hand positions vs 'around' positions that best suit the user. I'm guessing he and I agree that this strict adherence in some circles to rigid placement of non-combat positions (unlike say, the best angle for a blocking arm etc) is like missing the view of the forest because of all the trees in your way.

Exactly. That's how I meant the initial post: not exactly that position but a similar one. I personally like to stand around with my open hands wrapped around each other (think of a handshake but I'm doing it to myself). I like to adopt that "butler politely awaiting orders" look. :3

 

[Dirty Dog]

In Won Hyo the hands are around mouth level, and Hwa Rang they are crossed below the belt.

That would be tongmilgi junbi seogi (pushing hands ready stance) and kyopson junbi seogi (crossed hands ready stance).
Terminology does vary between orgs, but those terms are used by both the MooDukKwan and Kukkiwon. It's entirely possible that General Choi used different terms, but if so, I do not recall those names. I'll see if anything bubble to the surface of my memory.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Exactly. That's how I meant the initial post: not exactly that position but a similar one. I personally like to stand around with my open hands wrapped around each other (think of a handshake but I'm doing it to myself). I like to adopt that "butler politely awaiting orders" look. :3

In Isshinryu, that stance is useful for a variety of things, including strikes to the balance points around the hips.

Seen here in the opening move of Naihanchi kata (not my photo)

Isshinryu Naihanchi Kata – Cute766

www.cute766.info

This strike is employed with the back of the hands in a pushing motion in bunkai (not part of the kata, one potential application of it).

It's a good neutral stance, IMO. I typically do not stand that way, but there's nothing wrong with it. I would find it a bit challenging to ward off a strike to the face, just because I'm not all that fast.

 

[MadMartigan]

It's entirely possible that General Choi used different terms, but if so, I do not recall those name

According to Gen. Choi's 1972 TKD Encyclopedia (the basis for our curriculum) those ready stances are simply referred to as:
Moa Junbi Sogi (I had to look up the Korean terminology as we don't use it for fundamental movement names)
Closed ready stance A - (hands high) and
Closed Ready Stance C - (when they're crossed below the belt).
Obviously, the 1 in the middle, where the hands are closed in front of the navel is 'B'.