When the kata is applied to self defense

[Hanzou]

And your point is?

That it doesn't just revolve around sports.

 

[now disabled]

That it doesn't just revolve around sports.

Ok so how are the basics of fighting in that style taught and how are the techniques that are used in fighting taught

You are basing everything you say on fight fight fight ......ok that may be some peoples goal but not everybody does MA to fight etc

@jobo made a good point in the real world all you need to be is better than the guy who attacks you ............now is every attacker going to be this highly trained BJJ or MMA etc fighter ?

 

[Hanzou]

Ok so how are the basics of fighting in that style taught and how are the techniques that are used in fighting taught

I never studied Kyokushin, so I don't know. However, I have practiced its parent system, and observed their sparring and the end results of their training. Despite their use of kata, the style produces some excellent fighters.

You are basing everything you say on fight fight fight ......ok that may be some peoples goal but not everybody does MA to fight etc

And Wing Chun guys don't get giddy about Ip Man movies...

@jobo made a good point in the real world all you need to be is better than the guy who attacks you ............now is every attacker going to be this highly trained BJJ or MMA etc fighter ?

So what if your attacker IS trained in MMA, Bjj, Boxing, Wrestling, etc? You just curl up and take your beating?

 

[oftheherd1]

This is where I go drown myself lol.

I'm quite sorry sir! That will not be allowed until you complete and successfully demonstrate the kata for drowning at least three times. And you will have to satisfy the judges that you had fun while you were doing it.

 

[now disabled]

I never studied Kyokushin, so I don't know. However, I have practiced its parent system, and observed their sparring and the end results of their training. Despite their use of kata, the style produces some excellent fighters.



And Wing Chun guys don't get giddy about Ip Man movies...



So what if your attacker IS trained in MMA, Bjj, Boxing, Wrestling, etc? You just curl up and take your beating?

you are actually making me laugh ....now your on about movies

you state an art say blah blah blah about it then you say oops only studied it's parent art ....come on I really think enough is enough don't you

 

[now disabled]

I'm quite sorry sir! That will not be allowed until you complete and successfully demonstrate the kata for drowning at least three times. And you will have to satisfy the judges that you had fun while you were doing it.

He can't as Kata don't teach you anything ....didn't ya get that memo from the OP .......lol

 

[Hanzou]

you are actually making me laugh ....now your on about movies

you state an art say blah blah blah about it then you say oops only studied it's parent art ....come on I really think enough is enough don't you

The fighting prowess of Kyokushin karateka isn't exactly a secret. Those guys are respected even within the combat sports community as a tough group of fighters. Plenty of people use Kyokushin as their striking base in MMA.

Additionally, I knew quite a few Shotokan karate practitioners who have actively converted their style of teaching to more closely resemble the Kyokushin model. So the styles are very similar.

 

[Steve]

Some might ....a year of training probably not

Some people with no training might also. I should have said, do you think they would perform well vs a control group of untrained people? I think any competitive training model would demonstrate clear skill development .

 

[Martial D]

[
]

You are basing everything you say on fight fight fight ......ok that may be some peoples goal but not everybody does MA to fight etc

Remove the martial and you are left with only an 'art'. Much like ballet.

@jobo made a good point in the real world all you need to be is better than the guy who attacks you ............now is every attacker going to be this highly trained BJJ or MMA etc fighter ?

Would you rather have a Nerf hammer that will only work on wimps or an aluminum bat that works on everyone?

 

[Steve]

[
]

Remove the martial and you are left with only an 'art'. Much like ballet.


Would you rather have a Nerf hammer that will only work on wimps or an aluminum bat that works on everyone?

And we have recently agreed that self defense and fighting are synonymous. So fighting skills are relevant.

 

[oftheherd1]

He can't as Kata don't teach you anything ....didn't ya get that memo from the OP .......lol

This thing is devolving faster than expected. I am not on the judges selection committee, but from incontestable opinions I have gathered a sliding scale of possible facts; the first being that @Hanzou and @Martial D were the first to volunteer with the selection committee and have in fact been selected. There is now a fierce fight for the third judges slot. The third incontestable opinion is that @JowGaWolf was disqualified by unanimous vote of the first two judges and that being thought underhanded by the committee, @JowGaWolf may be selected to referee. That has been contested by a faction of @gpseymour supporters who may win out that position for him after all. It gets worse.

@elder999 hung back until he could quietly sneak himself into the rules committee, even without formal consent of the Rules Committee selection board. I'm told they didn't have enough opinions one way or the other to stop him, and that's a fact. He then demanded @now disabled be on the Rules Committee as well, along with @Steve. @pgsmith and @Kung Fu Wang will be backups if they agree to give up all facts in their possession first.

If that wasn't enough, some guy with the crazy name of @oftheherd1 will be the fact checker with two as yet unnamed scribes and a pharisee to assist him.

What a mess.

 

[now disabled]

And we have recently agreed that self defense and fighting are synonymous. So fighting skills are relevant.

There is more to self defense than fighting

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It was just a thought as to if you substitute the sword strike and say think bottle folks might be able to picture that coming as that is more likely than a sword.

Would you possibly agree that the tech or form in response is basically the same (ok the distance different but the response is the same)

I think you've quoted the wrong post. I'm not sure what you're replying to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would say that more folks stick it out in forms-intensive styles because they aren't getting beat up everyday. MMA, Judo, Bjj, Kyokushin, etc. beats their students up on a regular basis. When you aren't getting beat up, you begin to believe that you're better at fighting than what you really are, and your ego gets out of control. No one is there to sock you in the face and bring you back to reality.

Assume by getting "beat up", you mean losing - as in someone dominating in spite of their resistance (since actual beatings are rare in BJJ and Judo). And yeah, I'd agree that's part of it. Again, it's less a factor of the forms, though, than the overall approach to training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Also if for example someone is out walking or hiking and has say a hiking pole or a shepherds crook as an aid with them them the same basic techs can be applied as that of the jo (ok maybe one or to transfers won't work) and the responses are the same be it a jo or a person coming at you with a stick ...I guess the hanbo the same both ways

That's more a question of whether training traditional weapons is useful, rather than whether forms are useful.

 

[now disabled]

That's more a question of whether training traditional weapons is useful, rather than whether forms are useful.

Ok

I just view the weapons as part of my art not an add on

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think they're all disconnected . Kyokushin Karate has forms, fitness, and competition mindset.

That's what I was getting at. There's a correlation, and we have to be careful about attributing the cause to what might seem most obvious.

You touched on it in your earlier comment about correlation vs causation of dancing and boxing skill. The same is true for other elements of a training model . We can see results of the typical competition based training model. Results are virtually gauranteed.

So if you add yoga, forms, dancing, pilates or anything else, can you see gains? Maybe .

Agreed. Those might help, and at worst probably won't interfere with the effectiveness of the training model.

But this all hinges on a presupposition that the training model is solid . in a competitive environment, that is easy to see . In a "traditional" training model, that remains a legit question. Can the average aikidoka fight? Can the average ninja fight? Can the average boxer fight? Can the average mmaist fight? I dont think the answer to all of the questions is yes. At best it's may be, may be, yes, yes . and that's being very generous to aikido and ninjutsu.

I agree. For those of us who aren't using competition as a training tool, we need to learn from competition training approach. We need to steal from you guys. It would help if we occasionally get some of you guys as training partners, too.

 

[Hanzou]

Assume by getting "beat up", you mean losing - as in someone dominating in spite of their resistance (since actual beatings are rare in BJJ and Judo). And yeah, I'd agree that's part of it. Again, it's less a factor of the forms, though, than the overall approach to training.

When I say "beaten up" I'm talking about how you feel after a night of hard rolling or randori. Yeah, you're probably not going to the hospital, and you can go to work the next morning without wearing makeup, but you're definitely going to feel like you've been through the tenderizer. Nothing's worse than a big sweaty fat man having you in side control.

Which also partially explains why some people avoid such martial arts. The sheer amount of physical contact can be extremely awkward for some people, despite such training being highly beneficial.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On another note, it's not as simple as saying adults learn best when context is provided. As people become more expert in an area, they will overcome issues and through experience have context . Providing too much context for these people in training can actually delay skill development because the learner will need to reconcile the context you provide then with their own . Slows things down. This is another advantage of experiential learning and why arts that do not apply skills in a context are unreliable at building expertise. Said simply, everything remains academic, which we see in some of the self defense "experts" here who acknowledge having no practical experience.

When I speak to providing context, it can be as simple as demonstrating the technique. It drives me nuts when people - including otherwise very good instructors - start a step-by-step walkthrough of a technique without first showing it at some moderate speed. This leaves the average learner trying to figure out what's coming next and why, rather than being able to pay attention to what's actually happening. Knowing that context (what the technique looks like in application) lets most learners do a better job of seeing what's important.

 

[jobo]

[
]

Remove the martial and you are left with only an 'art'. Much like ballet.


Would you rather have a Nerf hammer that will only work on wimps or an aluminum bat that works on everyone?

But it doesn't work on every one, unless your an elite level fighter, otherwise you run much the same risk of just being out gunned by some big guy,

We had a dojo invasion, were two mma guys all ripped and shredded, decided to pay is a visit and challenge and or humiliate d us.

They made the mistake of doing this on the night Floyd attended,Floyd is built like a cruiser weight boxer and covered in gangsta tats, and has had not a few actual street fights.

You could see the apprehension in the mma guys face as they circled each other, he had come to scare girls and middle aged accountants and he had got a guy, 4inches taller and thirty pounds of muscle heavier. It didn't last long, Floyd but him with a clubbing right and he fell over. The other guy didn't want to fight now and they left.