When the kata is applied to self defense

[DaveB]

What if there was evidence of him throwing that kick before segal consulted with him?(hint, there is loads of it. Watch some of his fights from the early/mid 2000s)

Then it would conclusively prove that Hanzou has tricked you into debating a piece of nonsense so that nobody scrutinises the perfect example I gave of his dumb ideas about ma training being proven worthless.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Where am I bashing arts? @JowGaWolf said that the majority of TMA practitioners aren't doing it to learn to fight, they're just doing it for "fun". That actually coincides with everything I've been saying throughout this thread.

I'm pretty sure that's not what you are saying.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Are you serious ? truly or are you just being a troll?

He's being a troll lol. it's the "same song" every time.

 

[Martial D]

Then it would conclusively prove that Hanzou has tricked you into debating a piece of nonsense so that nobody scrutinises the perfect example I gave of his dumb ideas about ma training being proven worthless.

That's a completely separate argument. I was responding to that point only vis a vis Silva/front kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I just don't understand why anybody may prefer method 1 over method 2.

My guess would be that most striking martial arts have movement that is foreign to most people. As a teacher I would watch older students try to get their body to move a certain way and you can see them struggle with it. I've seen students rush through learning the movement and do horrible in applying the movement simply because their brain got in the way.

 

[Hanzou]

Then it would conclusively prove that Hanzou has tricked you into debating a piece of nonsense so that nobody scrutinises the perfect example I gave of his dumb ideas about ma training being proven worthless.

Where did I say that MA training was proven to be worthless? I said that there's little evidence to show that kata/forms training makes you a better fighter, and in fact the evidence appears to show that the opposite is the case.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm pretty sure that's not what you are saying.

That's exactly what I'm saying. If the true goal of TMAs is "fun" and "exercise", over learning how to fight and defend yourself then that Jow Ga sparring drill doesn't need to be effective against a similarly trained boxer, and forms are just exercises that teach you about the culture and history of your style.

Some would definitely consider that "fun".

 

[JowGaWolf]

I practice Bjj. You didn't know that I can wriggle and roll to get out of things? That's sort of my specialty.

This is where I go drown myself lol.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You really wanna get into it again ? so you can tell me all the things that you do or are you just for the sake of all others gonna back off ?

Your call

I've been thinking this for a bit, but you get too uptight and think too much about other people's responses. No one is offended by what you said, and I doubt anyone is concerned if you're offended.

More related to this, some people on this forum, if you make a claim they disagree with, want proof of it. That proof can be video, research studies, logic that they accept, or something else, but some sort of proof. If you have that proof, share it and continue, or if you don't have any way to substantiate it, say "I can't prove that point, nevermind. Otherwise it leads (has lead in the past) to absolutely ridiculous claims. The other option is what you've been doing, which is insisting that people accept your claims without proof, causing them to continue asking for proof, and it'll cause a back to forth for about 10 pages on each thread.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's exactly what I'm saying. If the true goal of TMAs is "fun" and "exercise", over learning how to fight and defend yourself then that Jow Ga sparring drill doesn't need to be effective against a similarly trained boxer, and forms are just exercises that teach you about the culture and history of your style.

Some would definitely consider that "fun".

Finally Hanzou and Jow Ga agree on something. Starting the stopwatch to see how long world peace lasts lol.

 

[Martial D]

That's exactly what I'm saying. If the true goal of TMAs is "fun" and "exercise", over learning how to fight and defend yourself then that Jow Ga sparring drill doesn't need to be effective against a similarly trained boxer, and forms are just exercises that teach you about the culture and history of your style.

Some would definitely consider that "fun".

You know what I find confusing? And this is to nobody in specific.

Traditionally, and in every martial arts legend, you find master's fighting each other to prove what style is the best. CMA is full of this sort of thing. People talk about great master's fighting on rooftops and all that jazz.

Yet here we are in 2018 actually doing that, and it's the ones with all the legends and great fighting master's rejecting the results wholesale. It seems like counterproductive pride to me.

 

[Hanzou]

Finally Hanzou and Jow Ga agree on something. Starting the stopwatch to see how long world peace lasts lol.

Join a Bjj or MMA gym and the peace will be eternal.

 

[Martial D]

Join a Bjj or MMA gym and the peace will be eternal.

Or just work out with those guys and spar them until you can jow ga their faces off.

 

[drop bear]

You know what I find confusing? And this is to nobody in specific.

Traditionally, and in every martial arts legend, you find master's fighting each other to prove what style is the best. CMA is full of this sort of thing. People talk about great master's fighting on rooftops and all that jazz.

Yet here we are in 2018 actually doing that, and it's the ones with all the legends and great fighting master's rejecting the results wholesale. It seems like counterproductive pride to me.

I mean a bit hyperbolic there. But the gyst.

 

[drop bear]

That's exactly what I'm saying. If the true goal of TMAs is "fun" and "exercise", over learning how to fight and defend yourself then that Jow Ga sparring drill doesn't need to be effective against a similarly trained boxer, and forms are just exercises that teach you about the culture and history of your style.

Some would definitely consider that "fun".

By the way training to win fights is rarely about fun.

Nobody has a gay old time during a fight camp. Fighting might be fun. Winning is fun. But the camp is just crap.

 

[Martial D]

By the way training to win fights is rarely about fun.

Nobody has a gay old time during a fight camp. Fighting might be fun. Winning is fun. But the camp is just crap.

Training MMA hurts. It's not easy to do it every damn day that's for sure. Not even for 5 days a week.

I mean..it is..but pain isn't. And there will be pain ..

 

[drop bear]

Training MMA hurts. It's not easy to do it every damn day that's for sure. Not even for 5 days a week.

I mean..it is..but pain isn't. And there will be pain ..

It is all very nietzsche

 

[Martial D]

It is all very nietzsche

With a splash of machiavelli.

 

[Hanzou]

You know what I find confusing? And this is to nobody in specific.

Traditionally, and in every martial arts legend, you find master's fighting each other to prove what style is the best. CMA is full of this sort of thing. People talk about great master's fighting on rooftops and all that jazz.

Yet here we are in 2018 actually doing that, and it's the ones with all the legends and great fighting master's rejecting the results wholesale. It seems like counterproductive pride to me.

To be fair, some of the old masters weren't all that good, and some of those legends are just bullshido.

For example, remember that legend about Huo Yuanjia? You may have heard about it, he was portrayed by Jet Li in "Fearless". Supposedly he defeated several foreign fighters in duels and defeated them all using traditional Kung Fu. However, before he could defeat his last opponent, he was poisoned by the Japanese.

Watching the film (and listening to the legends) you'd think this guy flattened over a dozen people. In reality, he didn't fight anyone. He had two challenge matches. One guy fled, and he supposedly the second fight was a knockdown contest. However, there's evidence to suggest that that guy fled too.

Even the part about him being poisoned is contested, saying that in reality he had a negative reaction to medicine, ala Bruce Lee.

Then we have the rooftop battles between masters. Here's an example of one:

Yeaaaaahhhhhhh

The simple reality is that those guys are out there, and they're not stepping forward, because they know what's going to happen when they do.

Who wants to be on the receiving end of that?

 

[lansao]

Hardly. You can strip the forms away from traditional arts, and they will be just fine. In fact, I would argue that they would be better off, because you would streamline the curriculum, dump the nonsense saved only by tradition, and focus on the most effective techniques.

I think forms can be incredibly beneficial for improvisational application. They behave a lot like patterns and scales do for jazz musicians who practice really small abstract transitions that make no sense without the context of their backup.

I mean, they still practice their sheet music (drills) and play in bands (spar/fight) but don’t hate on the fundamentals or you’ll be nothing but a “tin can of clams.” (Brass/Sax player who hits a bunch of wrong notes or “clams”).

These exercises help free up fighters from getting hung up on specific and sometimes predictable drills.