When the kata is applied to self defense

[Tony Dismukes]

As far as I know, that's a nope...

Hatsumi in the Bujinkan has repirtedly made it very clear that youbcan train in his art in the Bujinkan, or in one of the offshoots, but not both. Regardless of what those in the offshoot may feel.

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I know. I suspect that in this case the guy is just not bringing his affiliation with Toshindo to the attention of Hatsumi or the shihans when he visits Japan. Unless things have changed, the Bujinkan doesn’t exactly have a cadre of enforcers checking to make sure foreign students are playing by the rules.

 

[now disabled]

Except if they say that there is an extensive grappling curriculum hidden within kata, they ARE lying.

Just be careful on what you are saying that all just be careful

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Someone with poor grappling skills won't get them from kata, ...

The problem is there are just too many missing elements in the form.

When I learned long fist, I asked my long fist teacher what was the purpose of kick the leg back after kicking. He told me it can be used to kick someone's leg behind me. Since my opponent is a moving object and also I can't see behind, I didn't know how to use that technique. Until I started to learn Chinese wrestling, I then noticed that I have to control my opponent's upper body first before I can apply that "spring".

Can I learn how to control my opponent's upper body from the long fist system? I cannot because that training is missing in the long fist system. In a striking art, you just don't learn head lock, under hook, over hook, waist wrap, bear hug, ...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And this is where we start to get into the expected ROI on one's time. While I think kata might not be detrimental to learning, there are more efficient and reliable waus to build skill.

This is part of the discussion that gets more subjective, IMO. The ROI for most of us includes more than direct fighting/defensive application. I added kata to my curriculum not because I thought they taught good technique (for grappling, especially, I don't see how they could), but because I found many students enjoyed the challenge of working on them, they make a good warm-up routine that also lets me correct movement principles, and they give me some reference points for other work. I doubt they do any of that more efficiently (time-wise) than separate tools might, but they are among the few tools I found that give all of those options for use.

And, like training aiki techniques and principles, I don't need everything to be time-efficient. Sometimes, it's more about what you can learn along the way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, disregarding the word extensive, can this be considered an answer to my question? Do you believe there are no grappling moves hidden in any martial arts kata?

If they are hidden in there, what use is it?

 

[now disabled]

If they are hidden in there, what use is it?

"Hidden" my be a broader concept as is the way in the east ...possibly more thru using or studying there can be other application just my opinion there tho

Also and this you may think is irrelevant but Hiden may be and could cause confusion as how we in the west take it again the east have a slightly different idea on that

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem is there are just too many missing elements in the form.

When I learned long fist, I asked my long fist teacher what was the purpose of kick the leg back after kicking. He told me it can be used to kick someone's leg behind me. Since my opponent is a moving object and also I can't see behind, I didn't know how to use that technique. Until I started to learn Chinese wrestling, I then noticed that I have to control my opponent's upper body first before I can apply that "spring".

Can I learn how to control my opponent's upper body from the long fist system? I cannot because that training is missing in the long fist system. In a striking art, you just don't learn head lock, under hook, over hook, waist wrap, bear hug, ...

This would be a good example of someone with knowledge finding a useful movement in a kata. So, if you were teaching Long Fist, you could include that bit of teaching, using that kata movement as a reference point, though it's probably not what that movement was originally intended for. The kata becomes a handy reference for movement, but still requires your (the instructor's) knowledge to get to how to use those movements.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Hidden" my be a broader concept as is the way in the east ...possibly more thru using or studying there can be other application just my opinion there tho

Also and this you may think is irrelevant but Hiden may be and could cause confusion as how we in the west take it again the east have a slightly different idea on that

Be that as it may, if it's not disclosed ("hidden"), then it's not doing students any good. And if someone finds a new use for a movement from kata, I don't see that as something "hidden" in the kata. It's jut something new (to them) someone figured out that happens to use a movement present in a kata.

 

[lansao]

I prefer the chain of failures, too. On a side note, I recall someone saying recently this fail-and-respond was built into kata in their style (or maybe just their school), but I've entirely forgotten who. @lansao, was it you mentioning this to me?

Not me but our forms do have recovery aspects.

 

[Buka]

Rousing thread. Lots of great posts, great thoughts, lots of passion. Gotta' have passion in Martial Arts, just gotta'.

So many with so much knowledge. I love to listen to all of it.

I learned to apply my particular style of Karate to ground work. But was taught to by a ground guy. Helped me and mine a great deal. I highly recommend it.

And, Hanzou, you are like a fine spice rack in a great kitchen. I could cook perfectly fine without you, but why the hell would I?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it's probably not what that movement was originally intended for.

Sometime we may give too much credit to the original form creator. The following is one of my favor jokes.

A: Dear master, when you did your form at the 8th move, you move your hip a bit side way. Is there any secret application for that?
B: A bee just landed on my hip and I tried to get ride of it.
A: ...

 

[now disabled]

Be that as it may, if it's not disclosed ("hidden"), then it's not doing students any good. And if someone finds a new use for a movement from kata, I don't see that as something "hidden" in the kata. It's jut something new (to them) someone figured out that happens to use a movement present in a kata.

i get your understanding and can see the logic there

i was just offering a different concept on that no more

 

[JR 137]

Let's review, since you insist on being snarky about it ...

You started this thread by posting a 12 minute video (that you obviously watched) just so you could talk about how terrible what they were doing was. That seems like a huge waste of time and effort to me. I didn't even have to bother watching it to look them up and find out that they were under Stephen Hayes. That means that I wouldn't care for most of what they were doing, so I was done in about a minute. (No, that WASN'T what she said!)

I am perfectly relaxed, thanks for worrying about me. I never insinuated that you or anyone else might ever feel a need to write a research paper about this topic or any other. I merely gave my opinion (since you said we were all giving our opinions) that I didn't understand why you (or anyone else) would find this subject worth so much effort. Seems like a grand waste of time to me when there are so many more interesting things to discuss.

I was merely expressing my opinion, as I made sure and pointed out. I was hoping someone could explain to me why it mattered, but I guess I shall remain in the dark on this subject. This is not a problem as it was only minor curiosity, and I've already expended more effort in this thread than it merits, in my opinion.

I can explain why it matters...

If we expose fraudulent training methods and schools, bad ways to train, and improper MA thinking here on Martial Talk, the entire world listens and does everything they can to make sure they change their evil ways. We are the worldwide MA council, and we set the standards for every MA school’s training, regardless of style.

They’re all reading our posts and correcting all of their wrongdoing. If they don’t correct themselves, plenty of others are also reading and will pay them a visit with a cease and desist order.

Bullshido used to be the council, but they were proven to be too MMA biased, so we took over because we’re more neutral, like Switzerland. This is the Geneva Convention of MA.

Trust me, I’m in pre-med. Or is it pre-law? What’s the difference. My advice to you is drink heavily.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if someone finds a new use for a movement from kata, I don't see that as something "hidden" in the kata. It's jut something new (to them) someone figured out that happens to use a movement present in a kata.

One application that I have figured out myself from my form is to

- hold on my opponent's shirt.
- bend my leg and draw out a dagger from my boots.
- stab my dagger into my opponent's chest.

Did the form creator have this application in mind? I truly don't know.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I can explain why it matters...

If we expose fraudulent training methods and schools, bad ways to train, and improper MA thinking here on Martial Talk, the entire world listens and does everything they can to make sure they change their evil ways. We are the worldwide MA council, and we set the standards for every MA school’s training, regardless of style.

They’re all reading our posts and correcting all of their wrongdoing. If they don’t correct themselves, plenty of others are also reading and will pay them a visit with a cease and desist order.

Bullshido used to be the council, but they were proven to be too MMA biased, so we took over because we’re more neutral, like Switzerland. This is the Geneva Convention of MA.

Trust me, I’m in pre-med. Or is it pre-law? What’s the difference. My advice to you is drink heavily.

I know this is a reference but cant quite place it. Animal house?

 

[Steve]

Rousing thread. Lots of great posts, great thoughts, lots of passion. Gotta' have passion in Martial Arts, just gotta'.

So many with so much knowledge. I love to listen to all of it.

I learned to apply my particular style of Karate to ground work. But was taught to by a ground guy. Helped me and mine a great deal. I highly recommend it.

And, Hanzou, you are like a fine spice rack in a great kitchen. I could cook perfectly fine without you, but why the hell would I?

I don't always understand what you mean, but I always like the way you say it!

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think @JowGaWolf has given some good perspective in the past about properly taking form to function and keeping true to both. He's also given clips of his and others' approach to this I just dk where they are.

Long story short. The videos got me in trouble along with me asking questions in an effort to learn more about some of the traditional non fighting aspects of Kung Fu. I was kicked out of the school. True quote about the direction of my training and teaching "I focus too much of fighting." It's an odd thing to say to someone who trains how to use kung fu for self-defense. It's also a historical preservation as well. I'm not just learning how to fight but I'm also preserving the functionality of an "ancient" fighting system.

The good news is that the videos will come back along with some new ones as I'm no longer bound by the school that I was in.

I think he was getting pressure for duing video. secrets or something.

Yep. But all of that is in the past now.

The full story is actually a really good one. I don't get many interesting stories like this in my life, but this one even had me surprised and honored. One of the things I really want to do is to get some video of me sparring with some of the people here in Martial Talk. I just have to remember which who spars to win so I don't get my head knocked off lol.

 

[Martial D]

Long story short. The videos got me in trouble along with me asking questions in an effort to learn more about some of the traditional non fighting aspects of Kung Fu. I was kicked out of the school. True quote about the direction of my training and teaching "I focus too much of fighting." It's an odd thing to say to someone who trains how to use kung fu for self-defense. It's also a historical preservation as well. I'm not just learning how to fight but I'm also preserving the functionality of an "ancient" fighting system.

The good news is that the videos will come back along with some new ones as I'm no longer bound by the school that I was in.

Yep. But all of that is in the past now.

The full story is actually a really good one. I don't get many interesting stories like this in my life, but this one even had me surprised and honored. One of the things I really want to do is to get some video of me sparring with some of the people here in Martial Talk. I just have to remember which who spars to win so I don't get my head knocked off lol.

Wait, your JOWGa school actually kicked you out for posting those sparring videos? What the hell man.

If anything seeing it actually used for something would be good publicity wouldn't it?

 

[Hanzou]

Long story short. The videos got me in trouble along with me asking questions in an effort to learn more about some of the traditional non fighting aspects of Kung Fu. I was kicked out of the school. True quote about the direction of my training and teaching "I focus too much of fighting." It's an odd thing to say to someone who trains how to use kung fu for self-defense. It's also a historical preservation as well. I'm not just learning how to fight but I'm also preserving the functionality of an "ancient" fighting system.

The good news is that the videos will come back along with some new ones as I'm no longer bound by the school that I was in.

Yep. But all of that is in the past now.

The full story is actually a really good one. I don't get many interesting stories like this in my life, but this one even had me surprised and honored. One of the things I really want to do is to get some video of me sparring with some of the people here in Martial Talk. I just have to remember which who spars to win so I don't get my head knocked off lol.

Can't say I'm really surprised. Maybe now you'll train in some MMA or Bjj? There's no issue with fighting in those martial arts.

 

[Hanzou]

And, Hanzou, you are like a fine spice rack in a great kitchen. I could cook perfectly fine without you, but why the hell would I?

LoL! Thank you my friend. I'm glad I can add a little spice to the pot.