When the kata is applied to self defense

[Gerry Seymour]

One application that I have figured out myself from my form is to

- hold on my opponent's shirt.
- bend my leg and draw out a dagger from my boots.
- stab my dagger into my opponent's chest.

Did the form creator have this application in mind? I truly don't know.

I like it! Someday, I'm sending you a video of my kata, and you can find something like that in there, and I'll claim it's exactly what I intended.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Long story short. The videos got me in trouble along with me asking questions in an effort to learn more about some of the traditional non fighting aspects of Kung Fu. I was kicked out of the school. True quote about the direction of my training and teaching "I focus too much of fighting." It's an odd thing to say to someone who trains how to use kung fu for self-defense. It's also a historical preservation as well. I'm not just learning how to fight but I'm also preserving the functionality of an "ancient" fighting system.

The good news is that the videos will come back along with some new ones as I'm no longer bound by the school that I was in.

Yep. But all of that is in the past now.

The full story is actually a really good one. I don't get many interesting stories like this in my life, but this one even had me surprised and honored. One of the things I really want to do is to get some video of me sparring with some of the people here in Martial Talk. I just have to remember which who spars to win so I don't get my head knocked off lol.

Oooh, pick me! Get me on a bad-knee day, and there's no way I can stay low enough to deal with your deep stance. You'll destroy me. It'll be fantastic for your YouTube channel. You can post about how all non-Chinese arts are ********.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wait, your JOWGa school actually kicked you out for posting those sparring videos? What the hell man.

If anything seeing it actually used for something would be good publicity wouldn't it?

Some instructors' thinking just baffles me, man.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If your goal is to beat a high ranking Bjj or MMA exponent, you will need to lay off the form/kata practice. It won't do you any favors.

The form practice helps me. There have been multiple times when I successfully used a technique straight from the form in sparring on a first attempt. Forms practice is just repetition drilling. Telling me not to do forms is like telling a boxer not to shadow box or punch a bag. In Jow Ga the forms are actually made of practical fighting combinations mixed in with single strikes and grabbling. The forms help me train the motion and body mechanics needed to be successful with the technique. The sparring helps train the timing and application of the technique.

Forms are a practical reference in which I can organize possible striking and grappling techniques vs trying to remember each on separately.

Forms serve one purpose sparring serves another. I think too many people try to make Forms vs Sparring an "either or" choice. The reality is that you can do both and benefit from both with each helping a person to accomplish a more complete training.

The fact that I train forms and was told that I focus too much on fighting pretty much highlights that it's possible to do both. The Martial Artist just has to be honest with their training by matching the training requirements with the goal. Don't just do Form training thinking that it's a substitute for sparring. That's not being honest with one's training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Oooh, pick me! Get me on a bad-knee day, and there's no way I can stay low enough to deal with your deep stance. You'll destroy me. It'll be fantastic for your YouTube channel. You can post about how all non-Chinese arts are ********.

I'm planning to meet you in person soon. lol. I just have to get some things on my end organized. I'm hoping to do a day trip before the end of the year, provided that your schedule allows. I'll know more on my end in the coming weeks. My work life may be changing.

 

[Hanzou]

The form practice helps me. There have been multiple times when I successfully used a technique straight from the form in sparring on a first attempt. Forms practice is just repetition drilling. Telling me not to do forms is like telling a boxer not to shadow box or punch a bag. In Jow Ga the forms are actually made of practical fighting combinations mixed in with single strikes and grabbling. The forms help me train the motion and body mechanics needed to be successful with the technique. The sparring helps train the timing and application of the technique.

Forms are a practical reference in which I can organize possible striking and grappling techniques vs trying to remember each on separately.

Forms serve one purpose sparring serves another. I think too many people try to make Forms vs Sparring an "either or" choice. The reality is that you can do both and benefit from both with each helping a person to accomplish a more complete training.

The fact that I train forms and was told that I focus too much on fighting pretty much highlights that it's possible to do both. The Martial Artist just has to be honest with their training by matching the training requirements with the goal. Don't just do Form training thinking that it's a substitute for sparring. That's not being honest with one's training.

When boxers shadowbox, they utilize the actual fighting method that they use when they're actually fighting.

I have yet to see a traditional martial arts form that resembles the actual fighting method of the martial art itself. Even in your videos, your actual fighting method more closely resembled kickboxing or what we see from MMA than the elaborate movements from your forms. I experienced the same thing in Karate. I personally loved the Bassai Dai kata, but there's no way I would ever look like that when I was actually fighting, unless I wanted to get socked in the face.

Which is why I believe you'd be better served by simply doing MMA. If you wish to keep it Chinese-based, Sanshou would be a nice option as well. Wasting your time dancing around with antiquated stances and weapons isn't a good use of your time if your goal is to make Jowga a practical martial arts system.

However, to each their own....

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm planning to meet you in person soon. lol. I just have to get some things on my end organized. I'm hoping to do a day trip before the end of the year, provided that your schedule allows. I'll know more on my end in the coming weeks. My work life may be changing.

Just don't plan it in the middle of September - I'll be in India.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think asking "is kata practice good for developing fighting ability" is way too broad and simplistic a question. I think it's helpful to break it down further than that...

First, separate out solo kata/form practice (a la CMA, Karate, TKD, etc) from paired kata (a la koryu and koryu-derived arts). In my opinion, the two have fundamentally different purposes, strengths, and weaknesses.

Next, the following questions can be asked (about both general types of "kata" and the specific kata within a given system):

Does the kata help develop some specific skill, understanding, or attribute that can be useful for using the art in an actual fight?

What specifically are those skills, understandings, or attributes?

What different benefits might be gained from different kata (or the same kata performed in different ways)?

Can those skills, understandings, or attributes be developed through some other training method? What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of the kata versus the other methods for developing these?

Are the kata sufficient to develop fighting ability by themselves without some other form of training? (I'd argue that the answer is generally "no.")

Assuming you find value in kata (and in other forms of training), what is the best ratio of time spent on kata vs other training? Why?

How should the kata be trained in order to maximize the development of the desired skills, understandings, or attributes? I've seen many approaches to kata that I would consider ... counterproductive.

Is this particular kata (whatever you are studying at the moment) really optimized for developing the skills/understandings/attributes most relevant to the particular fighting style you are trying to develop? For example: if your fighting style involves punching from a high guard but your kata have all punches coming from the hip, is that optimal? Should you change the kata to punch from a high guard? Should you change your fighting style to punch from the hip? Is there a good reason to do them differently? I'd strongly recommend against making assumptions either way before investigation.

If you find that a particular kata or set of kata have useful benefits for you, is it necessary (or even desirable) to keep the kata beat-for-beat unchanged in perpetuity? I occasionally come up with short sequences for my BJJ students which could easily be formalized as a kata if BJJ culture leaned that way. The way I think about training them is similar to some descriptions I have read about the koryu approach to kata. However I don't see the need to lock down the sequence and have students memorize if for future use. They're just drills I come up with for the lesson I'm trying to impart at the moment.

Just a thought, but we might shed a little more light on the topic with more focused questions like these.

 

[oftheherd1]

When boxers shadowbox, they utilize the actual fighting method that they use when they're actually fighting.

I have yet to see a traditional martial arts form that resembles the actual fighting method of the martial art itself. Even in your videos, your actual fighting method more closely resembled kickboxing or what we see from MMA than the elaborate movements from your forms. I experienced the same thing in Karate. I personally loved the Bassai Dai kata, but there's no way I would ever look like that when I was actually fighting, unless I wanted to get socked in the face.

Which is why I believe you'd be better served by simply doing MMA. If you wish to keep it Chinese-based, Sanshou would be a nice option as well. Wasting your time dancing around with antiquated stances and weapons isn't a good use of your time if your goal is to make Jowga a practical martial arts system.

However, to each their own....

It has been a very long time since I did forms in studying TKD, and the highest I got was starting learning forms for I think 7th green gup. I agree we focused on kicks and therefore kick defense, but also punches and punch defense. Those things were in our kata. We practiced multiple attacker defense in our forms. I think I remember seeing that once by black belts. I also remember a member of my unit who got his black belt in Korea, and mentioned part of his black belt test was to fight against two higher black belts.

I'm so sorry you have not seen a martial art that taught moves in its kata that could be used in sparring. Maybe you would not have abandoned TMA for MMA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have yet to see a traditional martial arts form that resembles the actual fighting method of the martial art itself.

Another question to add to my list above: should a given training method (such as kata) always closely resemble the actual fighting application of the art? If not, what are some good reasons for divergence between the two? Do those reasons actually apply to the particular kata (or other training method) you are currently examining?

 

[Hanzou]

It has been a very long time since I did forms in studying TKD, and the highest I got was starting learning forms for I think 7th green gup. I agree we focused on kicks and therefore kick defense, but also punches and punch defense. Those things were in our kata. We practiced multiple attacker defense in our forms. I think I remember seeing that once by black belts. I also remember a member of my unit who got his black belt in Korea, and mentioned part of his black belt test was to fight against two higher black belts.

I'm so sorry you have not seen a martial art that taught moves in its kata that could be used in sparring. Maybe you would not have abandoned TMA for MMA.

Not what I said. What I said is that the movements, techniques, and transitions shown in kata rarely appear when the exponents are actually fighting each other (or anyone else). Additionally we have evidence of plenty of effective martial arts that have discarded kata completely, so clearly kata isn't a requirement to develop an effective fighting method as some people believe.

For example, take my favorite Shotokan kata Bassai Dai:

You will never see anyone fight that way.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have raised this concern many years ago. When I saw a teacher demonstrated on his student that when the student made 1 attack, the teacher countered with 6 moves as if the teacher was 6 times faster than the student. The student just frozen himself in the air. I started to ask myself, how could I avoid this kind of training issue. The answer is simple. I always attack first. If I attack fast, I will force my opponent to respond fast. It then will force me to respond to his respond fast.

In the normal situation, when you make one move, your opponent will respond with one move.

You can also avoid the issue by training your defenses under the assumption that your opponent gets one move for every move you make.

 

[Hanzou]

Another question to add to my list above: should a given training method (such as kata) always closely resemble the actual fighting application of the art?

Yes. Extensive practice in techniques, transitions, and stances you're never going to use is a waste of time, and can actually lead to some levels of confusion.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Boxers don't fake the outcome of a punch successfully. So you don't go from win to win which is nice but not very useful. As learning to towel up a guy who is getting rocked isn't high percentage.

So what they do is fake the defence. You punch, they slip and counter. Then you counter off that. Because, well that is handier to know.

Here we hit on what I consider to be the biggest single problem with the training methods in the Bujinkan. It’s all based on going from win to win and not on the idea that your opponent will do something intelligent to negate your techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When boxers shadowbox, they utilize the actual fighting method that they use when they're actually fighting.

I have yet to see a traditional martial arts form that resembles the actual fighting method of the martial art itself. Even in your videos, your actual fighting method more closely resembled kickboxing or what we see from MMA than the elaborate movements from your forms. I experienced the same thing in Karate. I personally loved the Bassai Dai kata, but there's no way I would ever look like that when I was actually fighting, unless I wanted to get socked in the face.

Which is why I believe you'd be better served by simply doing MMA. If you wish to keep it Chinese-based, Sanshou would be a nice option as well. Wasting your time dancing around with antiquated stances and weapons isn't a good use of your time if your goal is to make Jowga a practical martial arts system.

However, to each their own....

I'm happy to say that my fighting looks nothing like kickboxing.. lol. just for you I'll add a video of me doing kung fu shadow boxing, forms, and drills so you can see the similarities. Some will be exactly the same and other will be variations. None of it looks like kickboxing. Are you sure we are looking at the same videos?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just don't plan it in the middle of September - I'll be in India.

Nice. I knew you traveled but I didn’t know it was out of country as well. I hope to do the same in the future.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think asking "is kata practice good for developing fighting ability" is way too broad and simplistic a question. I think it's helpful to break it down further than that...

First, separate out solo kata/form practice (a la CMA, Karate, TKD, etc) from paired kata (a la koryu and koryu-derived arts). In my opinion, the two have fundamentally different purposes, strengths, and weaknesses.

Next, the following questions can be asked (about both general types of "kata" and the specific kata within a given system):

Does the kata help develop some specific skill, understanding, or attribute that can be useful for using the art in an actual fight?

What specifically are those skills, understandings, or attributes?

What different benefits might be gained from different kata (or the same kata performed in different ways)?

Can those skills, understandings, or attributes be developed through some other training method? What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of the kata versus the other methods for developing these?

Are the kata sufficient to develop fighting ability by themselves without some other form of training? (I'd argue that the answer is generally "no.")

Assuming you find value in kata (and in other forms of training), what is the best ratio of time spent on kata vs other training? Why?

How should the kata be trained in order to maximize the development of the desired skills, understandings, or attributes? I've seen many approaches to kata that I would consider ... counterproductive.

Is this particular kata (whatever you are studying at the moment) really optimized for developing the skills/understandings/attributes most relevant to the particular fighting style you are trying to develop? For example: if your fighting style involves punching from a high guard but your kata have all punches coming from the hip, is that optimal? Should you change the kata to punch from a high guard? Should you change your fighting style to punch from the hip? Is there a good reason to do them differently? I'd strongly recommend against making assumptions either way before investigation.

If you find that a particular kata or set of kata have useful benefits for you, is it necessary (or even desirable) to keep the kata beat-for-beat unchanged in perpetuity? I occasionally come up with short sequences for my BJJ students which could easily be formalized as a kata if BJJ culture leaned that way. The way I think about training them is similar to some descriptions I have read about the koryu approach to kata. However I don't see the need to lock down the sequence and have students memorize if for future use. They're just drills I come up with for the lesson I'm trying to impart at the moment.

Just a thought, but we might shed a little more light on the topic with more focused questions like these.

Like always excellent analysis. I would also like to add "setting purpose to action." Just because 2 people are doing the same form doesn't mean they are training the same things nor does it mean they are trainin with the same perspective.

 

[oftheherd1]

Not what I said. What I said is that the movements, techniques, and transitions shown in kata rarely appear when the exponents are actually fighting each other (or anyone else). Additionally we have evidence of plenty of effective martial arts that have discarded kata completely, so clearly kata isn't a requirement to develop an effective fighting method as some people believe.

For example, take my favorite Shotokan kata Bassai Dai:

You will never see anyone fight that way.

I have never trained boxing so I don't really know, but it looks like Mr. Tyson is combining a lot of different combinations, which seems to be what most kata do. But I think it senseless to argue. We each seem to have our own belief on the subject, and don't want to change. I respect your beliefs but I guess we just need to let it go.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think asking "is kata practice good for developing fighting ability" is way too broad and simplistic a question. I think it's helpful to break it down further than that...

First, separate out solo kata/form practice (a la CMA, Karate, TKD, etc) from paired kata (a la koryu and koryu-derived arts). In my opinion, the two have fundamentally different purposes, strengths, and weaknesses.

Next, the following questions can be asked (about both general types of "kata" and the specific kata within a given system):

Does the kata help develop some specific skill, understanding, or attribute that can be useful for using the art in an actual fight?

What specifically are those skills, understandings, or attributes?

What different benefits might be gained from different kata (or the same kata performed in different ways)?

Can those skills, understandings, or attributes be developed through some other training method? What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of the kata versus the other methods for developing these?

Are the kata sufficient to develop fighting ability by themselves without some other form of training? (I'd argue that the answer is generally "no.")

Assuming you find value in kata (and in other forms of training), what is the best ratio of time spent on kata vs other training? Why?

How should the kata be trained in order to maximize the development of the desired skills, understandings, or attributes? I've seen many approaches to kata that I would consider ... counterproductive.

Is this particular kata (whatever you are studying at the moment) really optimized for developing the skills/understandings/attributes most relevant to the particular fighting style you are trying to develop? For example: if your fighting style involves punching from a high guard but your kata have all punches coming from the hip, is that optimal? Should you change the kata to punch from a high guard? Should you change your fighting style to punch from the hip? Is there a good reason to do them differently? I'd strongly recommend against making assumptions either way before investigation.

If you find that a particular kata or set of kata have useful benefits for you, is it necessary (or even desirable) to keep the kata beat-for-beat unchanged in perpetuity? I occasionally come up with short sequences for my BJJ students which could easily be formalized as a kata if BJJ culture leaned that way. The way I think about training them is similar to some descriptions I have read about the koryu approach to kata. However I don't see the need to lock down the sequence and have students memorize if for future use. They're just drills I come up with for the lesson I'm trying to impart at the moment.

Just a thought, but we might shed a little more light on the topic with more focused questions like these.

As usual, an excellent synopsis of the issue, Tony.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not what I said. What I said is that the movements, techniques, and transitions shown in kata rarely appear when the exponents are actually fighting each other (or anyone else). Additionally we have evidence of plenty of effective martial arts that have discarded kata completely, so clearly kata isn't a requirement to develop an effective fighting method as some people believe.

For example, take my favorite Shotokan kata Bassai Dai:

You will never see anyone fight that way.

I haven’t seen or heard anyone saying they are a requirement for effective fighting development; rather, that they are a useful tool for same.