When the kata is applied to self defense

[Gerry Seymour]

Nice. I knew you traveled but I didn’t know it was out of country as well. I hope to do the same in the future.

This one wasn’t in my list of desired trips. I just can’t seem to find a client that needs my assistance in Western Europe.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm happy to say that my fighting looks nothing like kickboxing.. lol. just for you I'll add a video of me doing kung fu shadow boxing, forms, and drills so you can see the similarities. Some will be exactly the same and other will be variations. None of it looks like kickboxing. Are you sure we are looking at the same videos?

Very well. Let's take a different approach.....

This is a Jowga sparring drill, and it would appear to more closely resemble traditional hand techniques. Do you believe that these techniques would be effective against someone trying to legitimately attack them, much less a trained fighter?

 

[Hanzou]

I have never trained boxing so I don't really know, but it looks like Mr. Tyson is combining a lot of different combinations, which seems to be what most kata do. But I think it senseless to argue. We each seem to have our own belief on the subject, and don't want to change. I respect your beliefs but I guess we just need to let it go.

The point is that if you look at Mike Tyson's actual bouts, he's doing the exact same movements that he's doing in that shadowboxing clip.

Unlike say....Shaolin Kung fu?

 

[Hanzou]

I haven’t seen or heard anyone saying they are a requirement for effective fighting development; rather, that they are a useful tool for same.

There is running belief in traditional MA that bad kata/form means your fighting ability will be greatly reduced.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is running belief in traditional MA that bad kata/form means your fighting ability will be greatly reduced.

I think doing any drill badly can actually have that effect. There’s a difference between bad kata and no kata.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Very well. Let's take a different approach.....

This is a Jowga sparring drill, and it would appear to more closely resemble traditional hand techniques. Do you believe that these techniques would be effective against someone trying to legitimately attack them, much less a trained fighter?

My first response without looking is "depends on how they train and if they are honest about training for the specific purpose of using the techniques to fight."

My second response after watching the video is that yes some of those techniques will work as I have already shown through some of my videos. Some of the techniques I saw were done incorrectly by the students and it was clear to me that there was a lot of forcing of the technique vs using the right technique at the right time. in terms of sparring it was a class full of beginners. It also doesn't look like their goal for that session is focused on how to fight using Jow Ga. It seems that sparring session is an exploratory session.

 

[DaveB]

When boxers shadowbox, they utilize the actual fighting method that they use when they're actually fighting.

I have yet to see a traditional martial arts form that resembles the actual fighting method of the martial art itself. Even in your videos, your actual fighting method more closely resembled kickboxing or what we see from MMA than the elaborate movements from your forms. I experienced the same thing in Karate. I personally loved the Bassai Dai kata, but there's no way I would ever look like that when I was actually fighting, unless I wanted to get socked in the face.

Which is why I believe you'd be better served by simply doing MMA. If you wish to keep it Chinese-based, Sanshou would be a nice option as well. Wasting your time dancing around with antiquated stances and weapons isn't a good use of your time if your goal is to make Jowga a practical martial arts system.

However, to each their own....

FirstTyson threw a bunch of machine gun upper cuts that people don't fight with.
Second, shadow boxing Is not the only training method boxers use and not every training method resembles the fight.

Lomanchenko was taken out of boxing to focus on dance and he credits those skills for his footwork. Yet people with your disposition struggle to see the benefits of combat adjacent practices like kata and drills.

There is a discussion to be had around how much time one might spend on these kinds of training or if they are to be surpassed after a certain point. But a blanket dismissal is as foolish as blind acceptance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The point is that if you look at Mike Tyson's actual bouts, he's doing the exact same movements that he's doing in that shadowboxing clip.

Unlike say....Shaolin Kung fu?

Again.you picked a random video of people doing forms and assume their purpose of action and training is to fight.

There are many focuses for sparring, drills, and forms training. You can't just pick someone doing a form and say that's not valid for fighting. If I did my form you would be able to clearly tell my purpose of action.

 

[Hanzou]

FirstTyson threw a bunch of machine gun upper cuts that people don't fight with.
Second, shadow boxing Is not the only training method boxers use and not every training method resembles the fight.

Lomanchenko was taken out of boxing to focus on dance and he credits those skills for his footwork. Yet people with your disposition struggle to see the benefits of combat adjacent practices like kata and drills.

There is a discussion to be had around how much time one might spend on these kinds of training or if they are to be surpassed after a certain point. But a blanket dismissal is as foolish as blind acceptance.

Throwing multiple uppercuts (Tyson's signature punch btw) isnt the same as doing stances and techniques that you would never use in fight.

 

[Hanzou]

My first response without looking is "depends on how they train and if they are honest about training for the specific purpose of using the techniques to fight."

My second response after watching the video is that yes some of those techniques will work as I have already shown through some of my videos. Some of the techniques I saw were done incorrectly by the students and it was clear to me that there was a lot of forcing of the technique vs using the right technique at the right time. in terms of sparring it was a class full of beginners. It also doesn't look like their goal for that session is focused on how to fight using Jow Ga. It seems that sparring session is an exploratory session.

Really? So you think it is good to teach beginners a bunch of techniques loaded with bad habits early on just to glean a couple of useful techniques later on?

A boxer with 2 weeks experience would knock their head off.

 

[DaveB]

Throwing multiple uppercuts (Tyson's signature punch btw) isnt the same as doing stances and techniques that you would never use in fight.

Again, nobody uppercuts 2 inches infront of their chest in a fight, just like nobody hits a person like they hit a speedball.

And I'm curious, what part of Bassai dai is a stance or technique you would never use in a fight?

 

[Hanzou]

Again, nobody uppercuts 2 inches infront of their chest in a fight, just like nobody hits a person like they hit a speedball.

But they do uppercut, and general positioning and motion are the same. I have yet to see anyone perform a Uchi-Uke while fighting.

And that should answer your second question.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Really? So you think it is good to teach beginners a bunch of techniques loaded with bad habits early on just to glean a couple of useful techniques later on?

A boxer with 2 weeks experience would knock their head off.

Depends. If the students are just exploring the technique then it won't matter if the get the application correct because at that point function doesn't matter. However a student can't take that same approach if they plan on actually using those same techniques in a fight.

TKD Tricking is full of bad habits that aren't good for fighting. If your goal and focus isn't to learn how to fight then those bad habits aren't going to hurt you. Unless you try to use them in a fight. At that point the students aren't honest with themselves or their training because they are trying to apply a skill set that was never intended for fighting.

Some people train martial arts with the only focus of being good exercise or something they think is cool. It's not fair to expect them to fight when nothing about their training says "I'm training to fight" It doesn't mean that the techniques are useless it just means they aren't training how to fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Really? So you think it is good to teach beginners a bunch of techniques loaded with bad habits early on just to glean a couple of useful techniques later on?

A boxer with 2 weeks experience would knock their head off.

Just because someone trains martial arts doesn't mean they are training to fight. You are making the assumption that if person A trains martial arts, then person A also trains fighting. A boxer with 2 weeks experience? Boxers wouldn't even say something like that. It's unrealistic to expect that of a beginner.

 

[Hanzou]

Just because someone trains martial arts doesn't mean they are training to fight. You are making the assumption that if person A trains martial arts, then person A also trains fighting. A boxer with 2 weeks experience? Boxers wouldn't even say something like that. It's unrealistic to expect that of a beginner.

In that video they're all training the exact same thing. Are you really going to argue that no one on that training floor was there to learn how to fight? Are you also going to argue that those techniques they were learning would be useful for that goal (fighting)?

As for the boxer reference, I'm simply saying that based on skills attained at the 2 week point, the boxer would have no problem clocking those people in the face over and over again. Expand that boxer's experience to a year, and it wouldn't even be a contest. I'd even put sifu on the chopping block.

 

[Buka]

I think people look at the whole Kata debate wrong. It seems it's always a one way or another thing. What I mean is - we always did a lot of things in our training. We drilled, we stretched, we lifted, we did bag work, focus mitts, kicking shields, sparring, push ups, sit ups, chin ups, sprinting, jump rope, two man Kumite type drills, grappling, grappling drills, multiples work, verbal drills, take downs, resisting take downs, blocking, slipping, parrying, bobbing and weaving, ducking, jamming, sweeping, reaping, throwing, chokes, armlocks/wristlocks, reversals, escapes, blah, blah, blah and yada yada yada.

Okay.....take out any one thing from above and you know what? We would still be damn good Karateka and above average fighters. Same thing if Kata was on that list and we were to take it off. Kata, at least what I know of it, is part of most Martial training. But it seems that non Kata people treat it like it's the scourge of the earth and Kata people treat it like the Ark of the Covenant.

I always found that somewhat odd. But somewhat interesting, too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In that video they're all training the exact same thing. Are you really going to argue that no one on that training floor was there to learn how to fight? Are you also going to argue that those techniques they were learning would be useful for that goal (fighting)?

As for the boxer reference, I'm simply saying that based on skills attained at the 2 week point, the boxer would have no problem clocking those people in the face over and over again. Expand that boxer's experience to a year, and it wouldn't even be a contest.

Yes and they will even tell you themselves. Ask any martial artist why they train martial arts and you'll discover that very few will respond "to learn how to fight." most people say for fun and exercise.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think people look at the whole Kata debate wrong. It seems it's always a one way or another thing. What I mean is - we always did a lot of things in our training. We drilled, we stretched, we lifted, we did bag work, focus mitts, kicking shields, sparring, push ups, sit ups, chin ups, sprinting, jump rope, two man Kumite type drills, grappling, grappling drills, multiples work, verbal drills, take downs, resisting take downs, blocking, slipping, parrying, bobbing and weaving, ducking, jamming, sweeping, reaping, throwing, chokes, armlocks/wristlocks, reversals, escapes, blah, blah, blah and yada yada yada.

Okay.....take out any one thing from above and you know what? We would still be damn good Karateka and above average fighters. Same thing if Kata was on that list and we were to take it off. Kata, at least what I know of it, is part of most Martial training. But it seems that non Kata people treat it like it's the scourge of the earth and Kata people treat it like the Ark of the Covenant.

I always found that somewhat odd. But somewhat interesting, too.

People assume that if you know kata or forms that you automatically are training to fight. It's a very limited way of thinking and we probably have Hollywood to thank for that image.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes and they will even tell you themselves. Ask any martial artist why they train martial arts and you'll discover that very few will respond "to learn how to fight." most people say for fun and exercise.

If the majority of martial artists were taking up martial arts for "fun and exercise", why do they believe that their art of choice would be effective against a boxer or a wrestler, and why does so much TMA training revolve around beating those types of fighters?

 

[oftheherd1]

I think people look at the whole Kata debate wrong. It seems it's always a one way or another thing. What I mean is - we always did a lot of things in our training. We drilled, we stretched, we lifted, we did bag work, focus mitts, kicking shields, sparring, push ups, sit ups, chin ups, sprinting, jump rope, two man Kumite type drills, grappling, grappling drills, multiples work, verbal drills, take downs, resisting take downs, blocking, slipping, parrying, bobbing and weaving, ducking, jamming, sweeping, reaping, throwing, chokes, armlocks/wristlocks, reversals, escapes, blah, blah, blah and yada yada yada.

Okay.....take out any one thing from above and you know what? We would still be damn good Karateka and above average fighters. Same thing if Kata was on that list and we were to take it off. Kata, at least what I know of it, is part of most Martial training. But it seems that non Kata people treat it like it's the scourge of the earth and Kata people treat it like the Ark of the Covenant.

I always found that somewhat odd. But somewhat interesting, too.

When I studied TKD we usually (almost always) did kata in steps. In the Hapkido I studied, and most other Hapkido kwans, there are no kata (it was considered in the mid-80s, and GM were encouraged to submit samples and agreements or disagreements). The thought on kata was not adopted. So I guess the gist of the threat argument is that we are superior to those that do kata. I would not agree. More importantly perhaps, I should say that kata are made up of a lot of different steps, or techniques. They are strung together. Would anyone do a kata in a fight? That would be fun to watch if very unproductive for defense. But as provided by the video of M. Tyson; he also strung a lot of moves together, stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plum of looking like a real strong fighter.

Dummy me, I don't see that as any different from forms. When I did forms, I always imagined each move was a specific defense or attack. Please forgive me. I was young and inexperienced.