When I was a kid I said forms were stupid

[JR 137]

"Stupid is as stupid does."
- Forrest Gump

Doing forms for stupid reasons makes doing forms stupid. Stupid reasons include, but are not limited to:

Requiring them for the sole sake of filling a curriculum
Doing them to fill class time
Doing them without knowing why
Doing them without trying to figure out why
Doing them and thinking you can take on multiple attackers
Doing them and thinking you're a good fighter because your performance looks pretty
Doing them and thinking you're a good fighter while forgetting your opponent will most likely resist
Doing them and thinking you'll pull off every cool move exactly as you do the form
Doing them because they look cool

This list isn't exhaustive, but it got a bit exhausting. Feel free to add to it.

 

[Juany118]

"Stupid is as stupid does."
- Forrest Gump

Doing forms for stupid reasons makes doing forms stupid. Stupid reasons include, but are not limited to:

Requiring them for the sole sake of filling a curriculum
Doing them to fill class time
Doing them without knowing why
Doing them without trying to figure out why
Doing them and thinking you can take on multiple attackers
Doing them and thinking you're a good fighter because your performance looks pretty
Doing them and thinking you're a good fighter while forgetting your opponent will most likely resist
Doing them and thinking you'll pull off every cool move exactly as you do the form
Doing them because they look cool

This list isn't exhaustive, but it got a bit exhausting. Feel free to add to it.

Exactly, however, and maybe this is just my Sifu, we a specific reason for doing one form at the beginning of class, SLT, regardless of rank.

SLT has many translations. Little mind, Little imagination etc. The idea behind it though is this. By focusing on that, if you do it properly, you clear your mind or "empty your cup" so to speak. So in doing the form not only do you reinforce the basic alphabet of Wing Chun but you leave the headache waiting for you at work the next day, the argument you had with your significant other, at the door. Then real training can begin.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This list isn't exhaustive, but it got a bit exhausting. Feel free to add to it.

- MA is 2 persons art. It cannot be done "solo".
- MA involves timing, opportunity, angle, force, balance. Without opponent, timing, opportunity, and angle have no meaning.
- You may be able to punch an invisible opponent because a punch or a kick is just "1 point contact". You can't throw an invisible opponent because a throw is "2 or 3 points contact".

 

[Flying Crane]

How long can you keep your students with only 3 open hand forms? I have 30 open hand forms and I can keep my student 10 times longer than you can.

To me, that is irrelevant.

 

[JR 137]

To me, that is irrelevant.

I think, or at least hope, he was being sarcastic. Implying the mentality of chasing rank and learning a bunch of new forms for each of the dozens ranks keeps students around longer and therefore making more money. But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[JR 137]

On another note, if I started my own school, it would be one kata for each rank. Actually one kata for every two ranks - learn a kata and some very simple applications for the first rank (say white belt/10th kyu), then learn more in-depth application and proving use of it against a reasonably resisting opponent for the next rank (advanced white belt/9th kyu). After that, repeat with a new kata. So in a 10 kyu ranks system, you'd learn and apply 5 kata total before 1st dan. Kyu rank kata aren't too long and intricate compared to black belt kata. At the dan level, same principle would apply - 1 kata, and in-depth knowledge and application against resistance before you promote.

In my fantasyland school, kata and application wouldn't be the only criterion for promoting though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think, or at least hope, he was being sarcastic.

I was sarcastic in that post. Once I visited a preying mantis school in China. I asked the instructor whether he taught the 3 major preying mantis forms, Ben-Bu, Lan-Je, and Zai-Yao. He said, "Those are important PM forms. You just don't teach those forms to anybody." I then asked him which forms does he teach. He told me a list of over 30 PM forms. He asked me how many PM forms do I teach. I told him that I only teach 3 PM forms. He then asked me, "How long can you keep your students for only 3 forms?" Even today, I still feel his statement is kind of funny."

IMO, you want to grow "tall" and you don't want to grow "fat". To learn 10 forms that belong to the same level is like to go through elementary school 10 times. It won't earn you a PhD degree. If you have

- 1 beginner level form,
- 1 intermediate level form,
- 1 advance level form,

that should be enough.

Someone once asked me, "Can you put 3 baskets in front of you, label it beginner, intermediate, and advance. You then take each and every move out of your forms and put into these 3 baskets?"

That question was asked back in 1978. Today, I'm still working on it.

 

[drop bear]

On another note, if I started my own school, it would be one kata for each rank. Actually one kata for every two ranks - learn a kata and some very simple applications for the first rank (say white belt/10th kyu), then learn more in-depth application and proving use of it against a reasonably resisting opponent for the next rank (advanced white belt/9th kyu). After that, repeat with a new kata. So in a 10 kyu ranks system, you'd learn and apply 5 kata total before 1st dan. Kyu rank kata aren't too long and intricate compared to black belt kata. At the dan level, same principle would apply - 1 kata, and in-depth knowledge and application against resistance before you promote.

In my fantasyland school, kata and application wouldn't be the only criterion for promoting though.

Shouldn't they be designed to teach an aspect of fighting? So it probably would not work as a progression.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Forms really are a different animal to drills.

Drills are created by function. So you take from fighting and train in repetition those movements.

Forms are created by ritural. Trained in repetition and then used in fighting.

Some people like ritural. And so will think forms are not stupid.

Some dont like ritural and think forms are stupid.

Both arguments are valid.

That's an assumption. Most forms are based on function. They took from the fighting and developed forms to build the habits. It's like someone practicing combinations on a heavy bag or focus mitts. Those combinations are repetition. They are based upon movements useful in fighting they want to ingrain. The primary difference is that drills (as you and I use the term) are specific to a single aspect. When training combinations, you're not doing a set of movements that also does something else by design. It's a more focused approach, but doesn't have the same breadth of use in training. It's the primary difference between "classical" and "modern" training, IME.

Forms tend to pack in more principles, movements from several aspects, and longer series before repetition. They are often repeated more exactly than drills. There are good reasons for that precision, though it's by no means a necessity. Once a student knows a form, I encourage them to create variations in it - pivot further, don't step on that move, etc. - so it becomes a bit more like shadow-boxing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh I don't doubt you can "get it" without knowing all of the forms. Imo some arts have so many forms because as time goes on a Master thinks "let me add this!" When I spoke of complication I was referring more to those "outside looking in."

Indeed, I could teach NGA without any of the forms. I've actually added long forms (originally only short forms), because they fill a training need for the students. I doubt there's any art that couldn't be taught without forms, and I doubt there's any art that can't use forms effectively. It's a training tool that can be used well, or "not used" well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

- MA is 2 persons art. It cannot be done "solo".
- MA involves timing, opportunity, angle, force, balance. Without opponent, timing, opportunity, and angle have no meaning.
- You may be able to punch an invisible opponent because a punch or a kick is just "1 point contact". You can't throw an invisible opponent because a throw is "2 or 3 points contact".

Actually, we throw invisible opponents in our long forms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On another note, if I started my own school, it would be one kata for each rank. Actually one kata for every two ranks - learn a kata and some very simple applications for the first rank (say white belt/10th kyu), then learn more in-depth application and proving use of it against a reasonably resisting opponent for the next rank (advanced white belt/9th kyu). After that, repeat with a new kata. So in a 10 kyu ranks system, you'd learn and apply 5 kata total before 1st dan. Kyu rank kata aren't too long and intricate compared to black belt kata. At the dan level, same principle would apply - 1 kata, and in-depth knowledge and application against resistance before you promote.

In my fantasyland school, kata and application wouldn't be the only criterion for promoting though.

Mine is the opposite. I have only 4 kyu ranks (including white belt), and all forms are learned prior to the last one, so 8 forms in 3 kyu ranks. But they are not very long, and 5 are learned as they learn the techniques (so the form will be given out over about 6-8 weeks).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shouldn't they be designed to teach an aspect of fighting? So it probably would not work as a progression.

Why wouldn't that work? There are aspects of fighting that a beginning student isn't ready for yet, and those could be held for the later forms.

 

[Flying Crane]

I was sarcastic in that post. Once I visited a preying mantis school in China. I asked the instructor whether he taught the 3 major preying mantis forms, Ben-Bu, Lan-Je, and Zai-Yao. He said, "Those are important PM forms. You just don't teach those forms to anybody." I then asked him which forms does he teach. He told me a list of over 30 PM forms. He asked me how many PM forms do I teach. I told him that I only teach 3 PM forms. He then asked me, "How long can you keep your students for only 3 forms?" Even today, I still feel his statement is kind of funny."

IMO, you want to grow "tall" and you don't want to grow "fat". To learn 10 forms that belong to the same level is like to go through elementary school 10 times. It won't earn you a PhD degree. If you have

- 1 beginner level form,
- 1 intermediate level form,
- 1 advance level form,

that should be enough.

Someone once asked me, "Can you put 3 baskets in front of you, label it beginner, intermediate, and advance. You then take each and every move out of your forms and put into these 3 baskets?"

That question was asked back in 1978. Today, I'm still working on it.

I appreciate the clarification. In my opinion, there are a lot of cluttered curricula out there. It doesn't need to be so cluttered. If financial profit is the motivation for keeping extra material in the curriculum, that is a real problem, it's deceptive and dishonest.

 

[drop bear]

Why wouldn't that work? There are aspects of fighting that a beginning student isn't ready for yet, and those could be held for the later forms.

Like?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Like?

If I wanted to create a form for absolute beginners, I'd leave out things like defense against a kick. I could include those concepts in an intermediate form. I might have a simple single-leg or double-leg in a beginner's form, but probably not drop seoi nage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I wanted to create a form for absolute beginners, I'd leave out things like defense against a kick.

Many MA styles don't teach defense techniques in the first 2 years. You want your students to attack, attack, and still attack.

In Chinese wrestling, we encourage students to "attack and lose" than to "defense and win". If all you can do is when your opponent tries to throw you, you use "pull guard" to drag him down, you will never be able to learn any throwing skill. You throwing skill development will have no future.

 

[Flying Crane]

If I wanted to create a form for absolute beginners, I'd leave out things like defense against a kick. I could include those concepts in an intermediate form. I might have a simple single-leg or double-leg in a beginner's form, but probably not drop seoi nage.

For a beginner form, I recommend it work fundamental techniques as the embodiment of principles of movemement and good body mechanics. That form is then a staple practice tool for the rest of the students martial career. It's taught to beginners, but is trained constantly, for ever. You don't outgrow something like that.

Applications can come later

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For a beginner form, I recommend it work fundamental techniques as the embodiment of principles of movemement and good body mechanics. That form is then a staple practice tool for the rest of the students martial career. It's taught to beginners, but is trained constantly, for ever. You don't outgrow something like that.

Applications can come later

The draw back for this approach is since the students don't see the goal. they may quit before reaching to it.

I like to use "single leg" to take my student down during day one (application first). Since they can see the effectiveness of this technique, when I teach them the foundation required for "single leg" (such as line up back foot with opponent's both feet), they will pay attention and spend time to develop it. In AI, this approach is called "backward search". You define the goal first, you then find a path to get there. During the beginner training stage, students won't be able to understand the usage of "good body mechanics".

Ancient Chinese liked to tell their children that "there are gold and pretty women in book". This way kids will have the motivation to study. It's the same psychology approach.

 

[Flying Crane]

The draw back for this approach is since the students don't see the goal. they may quit before reaching to it.

I like to use "single leg" to take my student down during day one (application first). Since they can see the effectiveness of this technique, when I teach them the foundation required for "single leg" (such as line up back foot with opponent's both feet), they will pay attention and spend time to develop it. In AI, this approach is called "backward search". You define the goal first, you then find a path to get there. During the beginner training stage, students won't be able to understand the usage of "good body mechanics".

Ancient Chinese liked to tell their children that "there are gold and pretty women in book". This way kids will have the motivation to study. It's the same psychology approach.

Oh, there is definitely applications in the fundamentals too.