When I was a kid I said forms were stupid

[Xue Sheng]

When I was a kid I said forms were stupid - Blog

I can still remember a conversation with my friend Dave, during jujutsu class in the early 70s, when we both completely agreed that forms were stupid..... but the TV show Kung Fu was really cool

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have to agree. When I was a kid, I thought sparring and breaking were fun (and I still do...) but I did just enough forms to get my next promotion.
It wasn't until adulthood that I realized just how much you could learn from forms.

 

[Juany118]

I have to agree. When I was a kid, I thought sparring and breaking were fun (and I still do...) but I did just enough forms to get my next promotion.
It wasn't until adulthood that I realized just how much you could learn from forms.

My Sifu says, "if you ever run into someone who claims they have transcended forms, don't walk away, run"

 

[drop bear]

Forms are stupid.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Forms are stupid.

Said the guy who needs people to train.

 

[Buka]

Two people hitting each other is stupid.

 

[Juany118]

Forms are stupid.

If serious I think people don't really get what a form is. In boxing, JKD and some more modern things I see people talk about doing "sets" on their own, whether against a bag, shadow boxing etc. That is for all practical purposes a form. It is not as "formalized" as a form or kata, but it is performing the same function and in a similar manner.

 

[Headhunter]

Forms are stupid.

So you don't do shadow boxing then

 

[Touch Of Death]

You can't move like a jungle cat, unless you practice moving like a jungle cat.

 

[drop bear]

If serious I think people don't really get what a form is. In boxing, JKD and some more modern things I see people talk about doing "sets" on their own, whether against a bag, shadow boxing etc. That is for all practical purposes a form. It is not as "formalized" as a form or kata, but it is performing the same function and in a similar manner.

Forms really are a different animal to drills.

Drills are created by function. So you take from fighting and train in repetition those movements.

Forms are created by ritural. Trained in repetition and then used in fighting.

Some people like ritural. And so will think forms are not stupid.

Some dont like ritural and think forms are stupid.

Both arguments are valid.

 

[Flying Crane]

You can't move like a jungle cat, unless you practice moving like a jungle cat.

Yeah, but who moves like a jungle cat?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yeah, but who moves like a jungle cat?

Roar.

 

[Flying Crane]

I am a proponent of forms, until you have too many.

If you have a bunch, and you still don't "get it", then learning more will not help you, and will only clutter your training. You are simply missing something fundamental.

If you have a few and you do "get it" then you have no need for any more. They have fulfilled their purpose and you do not need to clutter your training.

The trick is, figuring out what it is you are trying to "get" and then determining if you've "got it". And figuring out if you have learned the appropriate forms and the foundational material that will help you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I was 11, my brother in law taught me an open hand form and a pole form. One day I got into a fight and I couldn't use what he taught me. I complained to him. He stopped teaching me any more form. For the next 3 years, he forced me to train "1 step 3 punches".

Even today, I still like his teaching method. If you can knock your opponent down/out within 3 punches, you don't need anything else.

 

[Juany118]

Forms really are a different animal to drills.

Drills are created by function. So you take from fighting and train in repetition those movements.

Forms are created by ritural. Trained in repetition and then used in fighting.

Some people like ritural. And so will think forms are not stupid.

Some dont like ritural and think forms are stupid.

Both arguments are valid.

I totally, as someone who originally trained to be a teacher, understand the idea of a preference between different teaching methods. In a substantive debate, I totally get the idea that different arguments are valid.

That said I don't think any argument that simply boils down to "that's stupid" is a valid one. Again, let me make clear there is certainly room for debate, however that debate has to start with first talking about they why of the differences, perhaps more importantly how big are the differences. Example, boxing is one thing, JKD is another thing. JKD says "we are beyond forms" but they have chi sau, hubud, and dummy forms etc. It's a lot more complicated and "that's stupid" seems to avoid the how and whys that make the real debate.

Hell I just realized I wrote like a teacher and I havent done that in 20 years lol.

 

[Juany118]

I am a proponent of forms, until you have too many.

If you have a bunch, and you still don't "get it", then learning more will not help you, and will only clutter your training. You are simply missing something fundamental.

If you have a few and you do "get it" then you have no need for any more. They have fulfilled their purpose and you do not need to clutter your training.

The trick is, figuring out what it is you are trying to "get" and then determining if you've "got it". And figuring out if you have learned the appropriate forms and the foundational material that will help you.

That is one of the things I like about WC. The number of forms is very limited. Until you get to weapons you have, in my WC, 4 unarmed forms, 1 wooden dummy form. The unarmed forms appear long, but for the most part it's simply duplicating the same techniques right and left because you are supposed to be able to use both sides of your body equally. However I have seen other arts that have 10, 15 even more forms for whatever reason. There asking the question you ask becomes a lot more complicated.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is one of the things I like about WC. The number of forms is very limited. Until you get to weapons you have, in my WC, 4 unarmed forms, 1 wooden dummy form. The unarmed forms appear long, but for the most part it's simply duplicating the same techniques right and left because you are supposed to be able to use both sides of your body equally. However I have seen other arts that have 10, 15 even more forms for whatever reason. There asking the question you ask becomes a lot more complicated.

I am in a system that has about a dozen and a half empty hand forms and a dozen or so weapons forms. I have learned maybe half of them, more-or-less. I am in no hurry to learn more. I actually believe that I've got it. That doesnt make me perfect or excellent or even particularly good. It just means that I understand the point of the methodology and I know what to focus on in my training.

 

[Juany118]

I am in a system that has about a dozen and a half empty hand forms and a dozen or so weapons forms. I have learned maybe half of them, more-or-less. I am in no hurry to learn more. I actually believe that I've got it. That doesnt make me perfect or excellent or even particularly good. It just means that I understand the point of the methodology and I know what to focus on in my training.

Oh I don't doubt you can "get it" without knowing all of the forms. Imo some arts have so many forms because as time goes on a Master thinks "let me add this!" When I spoke of complication I was referring more to those "outside looking in."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That is one of the things I like about WC. The number of forms is very limited.

How long can you keep your students with only 3 open hand forms? I have 30 open hand forms and I can keep my student 10 times longer than you can.

 

[Juany118]

How long can you keep your students with only 3 open hand forms? I have 30 open hand forms and I can keep my student 10 times longer than you can.

Well, they aren't my students, I am just one of the students others sometimes look to for advice and hints.

That said, first each form has 108 movements, however they are largely duplicated left and right. The first one is also one that should not only be done at "normal speed" but also what I, for simplicity's sake, refer to as "Qi Gong" or "Tai Chi" speed. Then after the forms of the day we spend a lot of time in cooperative drills.