When a student can't/won't do a particular aspect of the curriculum?

[jks9199]

Haha

Right. The SabumNeem won't ask anything of the student that shouldn't be asked. Their judgement shouldn't be questioned! If they say to do it, then they know what they are talking about!

If the Master Instructor says to do something, then Yes you will do it!

Period

Not so...

I've asked students to do things they physically can't. Or psychologically can't. Sometimes, it's been deliberate -- to drive a point home about their ability. (Yes, sometimes failure is necessary to get through to someone.) Sometimes, it's been accidental. I didn't know until they either failed or freaked out.

Part of martial arts training is about confronting limits and being uncomfortable. If all you want is to have fun and never be pushed, take a taebo class or something.

 

[newGuy12]

Not so...

I've asked students to do things they physically can't. Or psychologically can't. Sometimes, it's been deliberate -- to drive a point home about their ability. (Yes, sometimes failure is necessary to get through to someone.) Sometimes, it's been accidental. I didn't know until they either failed or freaked out.

I've been asked to do things and failed, but I never doubted my teachers. Why? Because they were so good, They were so precise, so insightful. I would never doubt them.

I've had the experience of doing breaking techniques (speed kicking one board held with two fingers with a side kick) that I thought I was unable to do. But, it was successful!

I've also failed at times, but surely that was MY fault, not my Teachers' fault!

Part of martial arts training is about confronting limits and being uncomfortable. If all you want is to have fun and never be pushed, take a taebo class or something.

I'll only say this, and no more. We are pushed, and we push back.

 

[Shotochem]

Haha

Right. The SabumNeem won't ask anything of the student that shouldn't be asked. Their judgement shouldn't be questioned! If they say to do it, then they know what they are talking about!

If the Master Instructor says to do something, then Yes you will do it!

Period

Hey NG,

I tend to disagree with you on this one.

I have had different instructors over the years and some were much better than others.

The one thing I have learned is not to follow too blindly. A little creative thinking and common sense goes a long way. I have had a few closed minded anal retentive instructors in the past whos way was the only way and anything else was just inferior.

I will no longer do excercises that will kill my Knees Duck walks, jumping squats ect....

I had one instructor who had us do a jumping sidekick over 5 or 6 target shields into a swinging heavybag. I did it once to show I could do it then politely declined to do it any further. Common sense told me that I had a greater risk or injury doing a pointless technique and I did not need to injure myself with a job and family to support.

YOU are the best judge of what your own limitations are. Just push yourself a little harder every time and the limits will decrease with time and training.

-Marc-

 

[Grenadier]

There are alternate ways of doing things.

For example, if someone in our system is going from Shodan to Nidan, they need to be able to perform a series of three kata: Passai, Wanshu, and Jion.

Everyone should be able to do Passai and Jion without problems, but there are some who have trouble with kata Wanshu (Empi), which includes a 360 degree jump.

Let's face it; people with bad knees, bad ankles, etc., aren't going to be able to do this jump without risking significant injuries. So, to accomodate this, we allow those who are in such a situation, to make a graceful 360 degree spin on the ground, instead of the jump.

There's nothing wrong with someone who can't do the spinning jump, doing the above, since the martial arts, in my opinion, is about maximizing what *you* can do, and that what you can do isn't necessarily what others can do, and vice versa.

Where I do get irritated, though, is when perfectly healthy, strong people, refuse to try the jump, but that's a story for later.

Once they get to the more advanced ranks, they have their choice of kata. Those who favor staying on the ground are going to go with kata such as the Gojushiho series or Sochin, while those who are lighter on their feet, might choose something different, such as Kushanku Sho or Unsu, both of which involve some jumping.

Either path is perfectly fine. You simply choose the one you want to take, and in my eyes, you've done just fine, as long as your quality of techniques are on par.

It makes no sense for a 300 lb character with bad knees / ankles to try to master kata Unsu, since they aren't going to be able to make the 360 degree spinning jump + double kick. If they want to try the other parts of the kata, though, I'd say go for it, since there's so much more to learn from it other than the flashy jump, but they do have to realize, that there are simply some things that they can't (or shouldn't) do.

 

[Balrog]

I've had past students that flat out refused to do things. If there is a honest to god medical reason, or they fear for personal safety ect I work with that student up to their max potential. If the student is being lazy, unwilling, along those lines then they are simply not allowed to test for rank. Sooner or later they will step up or leave.

And there it is.

As much as we hate to lose students, we have to realize that there will be the (thankfully) rare student that just isn't cut out for martial arts. That individual will be a poison pill in the school with constant bitching, whining, slacking off and being a bad influence in general until you tear up their contract and escort them to the door.

 

[Flying Crane]

And there it is.

As much as we hate to lose students, we have to realize that there will be the (thankfully) rare student that just isn't cut out for martial arts. That individual will be a poison pill in the school with constant bitching, whining, slacking off and being a bad influence in general until you tear up their contract and escort them to the door.

I dunno. I think this may be a bit of an extreme position. Maybe there are certain aspects of a curriculum that don't mesh well with a certain person, but they give 110% on all the rest. Why not let that person stay involved with the rest? If this prevents promotions, then so be it. If it's a school that doesn't put heavy emphasis on promotion, then it shouldn't matter at all. But why does it need to culminate in expulsion, just because a student doesn't have an interest in 5% or 10% of the curriculum?

My sifu teaches aspects of several Chinese arts. There are some that I am not interested in, and nobody in our school does everything. He is pretty open about allowing you to focus on what you are interested in. Some people only want to work on tai chi. Others are into bagua. I am more interested in the external traditional arts like White Crane and Shaolin, altho I also do tai chi, but I'm not really interested in bagua. He also coaches Modern Wushu, and I've been very clear with him that I have NO interest in that. It's never been a problem in our school, but perhaps this is unique to a school with a wide and varied curriculum.

 

[Flying Crane]

I know a woman who rose to 4th dan in a karate style before developing problems in both feet such that she could not do all the moves as specified. She was politely shown the door.

House rules, I guess...

wow, that seems especially harsh, particularly since I am sure she did not DELIBERATELY develop problems with her feet. I imagine she must have been a dedicated, respected member of the dojo, to have reached 4th dan. To just cast aside a member like this, seems pretty heinous to me.

 

[Laurentkd]

Interesting question, and I'll relate a personal story about my own unwillingness to embrace an aspect of one of my arts...

I don't know much about your art, but this seems extreme to me. If I can modify it to apply to what I know, it sounds like your situation would be simlar to a student who wasn't good at a jumping technique (because of whatever physical weaknesses) but still followed along in class and did his best. But then to have the instructor tell that student he must demonstrate his jumping skills (or lack there of) to the entire class as they all stood around and just watched many times over seems pretty harsh. I guess I just don't understand...

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know much about your art, but this seems extreme to me. If I can modify it to apply to what I know, it sounds like your situation would be simlar to a student who wasn't good at a jumping technique (because of whatever physical weaknesses) but still followed along in class and did his best. But then to have the instructor tell that student he must demonstrate his jumping skills (or lack there of) to the entire class as they all stood around and just watched many times over seems pretty harsh. I guess I just don't understand...

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying exactly, so I'll try to paint the picture a bit more clearly.

When we train the physical side of capoeira, then that is what we focus on. The musical side comes into the picture when training is done, and we play in the roda. This is where we actually "DO" capoeira, as opposed to practicing the technical side of the art. Capoeira can be sort of a playful fight (altho it can be brutal, depending on the personalities playing together). The art uses a rhythmic music to set the pace and determine the type of play (sort of our version of sparring). This comes from the Afro-Brazilian slave roots of the art, wherein the musical culture found a place in the fighting art.

The songs that are sung usually relate some history of the art, wisdom from old masters, or can be playful ribbing at classmates and whatnot, and the one's who are really good can make up songs on the spot to make fun of somebody if they do something silly or foolish in the game.

It is during the play when the music drives the game, that the observers will sing while waiting for a turn to play. This is when it is expected that everyone (hopefully) will contribute to the singing. But usually nobody is actually put on the spot in front of the crowd to sing, altho sometimes that can happen during a training session to encourage people to learn the songs. Sometimes, if only a few people are taking a turn at leading a song, the teacher will say something like "you can only get in to play if you sing a song first". That's when we can see who is really uncomfortable with singing, because suddenly participation in the roda drops to a select few who are comfortable with the singing.

I have actually made some effort to sing. I do my best to sing the refrain, but I don't like to lead. I have made the effort to learn a few songs in the past, but it is just rote memorization for me, I don't understand what I am saying, and I am sure my pronounciation is terrible. I find that Portuguese is a very difficult language for my tongue to make, and for my ear to hear. I have even taken some turns in leading a song, but I really dislike it and it generally doesn't come out well for me, altho the group is actually pretty supportive of getting people to sing and nobody is expected to sing like an angel. Many of the songs are pretty simple and rough anyway, not something for the opera. Just singing at all contributes to the energy and is appreciated all around.

So at any rate, it's not like getting up in front of a crowd to sing a recital. It's within the context of the play, and it's very fluid and changing, songs weave in and out as the games are played and people take a turn and then it's carried on by others and never really stops.

I just don't like singing, I never have, I don't like to express myself that way, and I don't like to be the center of attention. I'd much rather fade into the crowd that way, I can sort of follow with the chorus, but that's the extent of my committment to the songs. It made me uncomfortable for a long time, but I finally just sort of made peace with it for myself and said, well, that's just me. Maybe I'm selfish, maybe I'm myopic about it, whatever, but that's my position with it and I don't let it bother me anymore.

If you see some examples, it might help you understand it better. Check out this link, this is the website of the school I trained with and they have some video clips at this site. These were taken long after I faded away from the group, but there are some good examples of different types of games, some fast and furious, others more controlled like a chess game, but all have the musical side presented as well.

http://www.abada.org/gallery3.html

 

[KempoGuy06]

Recently I was watching an MAist do a beautiful form. I complimented him in admiration, and we began a conversation. He lamented that he couldn't teach all the forms that he'd like to teach, because of one reason or another. He said that some forms have some flying moves and he has students that can't, or won't, do those kinds of moves. He said that other forms are based off of rolls (such as a forward or backward roll) and he has students that can't, or won't do that.

So, a question that I'd like to throw out to students and teachers alike...what do you do when you have someone that can't or won't perform one or two aspects of your curriculum?

Do you show them the door? Is it all or nothing?

Or do you work with them? If you work with them, how do you do it?

There a certain things that I can't/won't do because of the injury I have sustained to my knee. I know how to do it, but performing that particular action causes pain. My insturctor tells me to do what I can and that he will work with me depending on what i decide to do about it (surgery or not)

This is an interesting question. I think that physically limatations should not cause someone to be denied the chance to train but a mental attitude or pure refusal to do something is a different story. I think the judgement would have to be based on a single person basis

B

 

[Rob Broad]

If a student physically can't do something I put would put a filler in the form for them. If they won't do something I would recommend the check out my competitor, let him have the headache.

 

[DArnold]

Recently I was watching an MAist do a beautiful form. I complimented him in admiration, and we began a conversation. He lamented that he couldn't teach all the forms that he'd like to teach, because of one reason or another. He said that some forms have some flying moves and he has students that can't, or won't, do those kinds of moves. He said that other forms are based off of rolls (such as a forward or backward roll) and he has students that can't, or won't do that.

So, a question that I'd like to throw out to students and teachers alike...what do you do when you have someone that can't or won't perform one or two aspects of your curriculum?

Do you show them the door? Is it all or nothing?
Or do you work with them? If you work with them, how do you do it?

Everyone seems to be in agreement between can't and won't.
However if you want to make the question more interesting...

where you draw the line with can't?

Do you mean can't as in could but no longer can
or
never could?

With these in mind where do you draw the line.

If someone never could, how high would you promote them?
1,2,3 Dan...
Master?
Grand Master?

How high do you promote someone they never know how?

HA Now it gets interesting!

 

[Laurentkd]

Everyone seems to be in agreement between can't and won't.
However if you want to make the question more interesting...

where you draw the line with can't?

Do you mean can't as in could but no longer can
or
never could?

With these in mind where do you draw the line.

If someone never could, how high would you promote them?
1,2,3 Dan...
Master?
Grand Master?

How high do you promote someone they never know how?

HA Now it gets interesting!

I see no reason to stop someone from advancing in rank as long as they can teach the correct technique (I also don't think you should promote beyond maybe 2 or 3rd degree unless you plan to teach the art... there is just too much to be learned BY teaching, to me that is the next logical step IMHO). Otherwise, how many old masters would have to be demoted just because they could no longer physically do the technique. To me it is like watching olympic gymnists. The coaches always seem to be old with a buddah belly, but if they can make a young person in their physical prime perform the movements to near perfection then they should deserve the title of coach (or even master!).

 

[jks9199]

Everyone seems to be in agreement between can't and won't.
However if you want to make the question more interesting...

where you draw the line with can't?

Do you mean can't as in could but no longer can
or
never could?

With these in mind where do you draw the line.

If someone never could, how high would you promote them?
1,2,3 Dan...
Master?
Grand Master?

How high do you promote someone they never know how?

HA Now it gets interesting!

It would depend on what exactly it is they couldn't do, and how integral it is to the style. Some techniques or skills are more integral to the style than others. If a student refuses or can't learn a front roll -- they're not going to be able to learn aikido or judo, but they might be fine with tai chi. We had one student in my class get his black belt, despite an arm that he had almost no use of due to an injury. He couldn't throw any left hand punches... but we could work around that. He couldn't do a long-stick form -- but he could do a short stick form. So, we could work around his limits.

 

[tellner]

Can't? You work around.
Won't? It depends on why.

 

[Xue Sheng]

, but they might be fine with tai chi. .

Careful.

 

[IcemanSK]

I see no reason to stop someone from advancing in rank as long as they can teach the correct technique (I also don't think you should promote beyond maybe 2 or 3rd degree unless you plan to teach the art... there is just too much to be learned BY teaching, to me that is the next logical step IMHO). Otherwise, how many old masters would have to be demoted just because they could no longer physically do the technique. To me it is like watching olympic gymnists. The coaches always seem to be old with a buddah belly, but if they can make a young person in their physical prime perform the movements to near perfection then they should deserve the title of coach (or even master!).

Well said. I have physical limitations. Always have, always will. I have to teach around them. My students know how to do things that I cannot because I can explain it to them wel enough that they understand.

Won't do? That is an issue that has nothing to do with can't. I don't understand why someone would want to train if there are things they won't do or try.

 

[DArnold]

So if you never could do parts of your martial art but can talk a good game then you can get promoted.

Sounds like the MA moms that sit on the side of my class!

 

[DArnold]

So if you never could do parts of your martial art but can talk a good game then you can get promoted.

Sounds like the MA moms that sit on the side of my class!

There has to be a limit or there is no standard, or worth

 

[jks9199]

So if you never could do parts of your martial art but can talk a good game then you can get promoted.

Sounds like the MA moms that sit on the side of my class!

There has to be a limit or there is no standard, or worth

I agree; that's why I said that it depended entirely on how integral the skill in question was to the particular art. For example, kicks are pretty integral to tae kwon do; not necessarily all the flashy ones -- but kicks are a big part of tae kwon do, right? But they play almost no roll in boxing. So, if a person wants to be a boxer, it doesn't matter if they don't have the balance to kick higher than their toes, and won't work on developing it. They can still punch with both feet on the ground. (I know, it's not a perfect analogy.) But they won't be able to do TKD until they figure out how they can kick. Or, being able to fall and roll are integral parts of aikido, judo, jujitsu, and several other arts. If someone's got some sort of inner ear disorder that they simply cannot fall or roll without suffering debilitating nausea, they'll never progress far in those arts. But they might be fine working in Shotokan or bagua or some other style that doesn't have to include falls unless you trip over the mat walking into the gym. I've currently got a student who dislikes (extremely, nearly to phobicly) having other people's sweat on him; we can work with him on that as long as he wants to work on it himself. He can wear a long sleeve shirt, and we can be careful with some exercises to recognize that problem. He'd be kinda stuck in any grappling style, though!

I'm not attempting to single out any art as better or worse, or including or not including something. I'm just trying to highlight the idea that some elements are essential, and others aren't.