drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I am lost. So if say for example you could kick a guys head off then you could not kempo well?
What's wrong with American Kenpo?
- Thread starter Mark P
- Start date
I am lost. So if say for example you could kick a guys head off then you could not kempo well?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Then a separate grade for qualified teachers?
Could? No. Would? Yes.
If you want specific criticism, then you'll need to provide specific video for critique. I don't want to be in the position of assuming a flaw I see is necessarily typical of Kenpo as a whole instead of an individual practitioner.
However, since you mentioned it ... I have seen plenty of Kenpo demonstrations where the attacker throws a single punch and leaves it hanging out there and acts like a punching bag while the defender performs a 12-move combo.( I can't say whether that's just for demos or if you actually train that way.) The only way that works is if you are 12 times faster than your opponent or if your first strike is always so devastating as to leave your opponent out on his feet. A safer way to think about it is "when I get a move, he gets a move."
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Yeah, it can be a mess. LOL
hoshin1600
Senior Master
perhaps the original post could be better stated as " what dont you like about Kenpo". there are parts of the style that i do not agree with but i would not say it is "wrong" unless there is a specific frame work around it.
something could be wrong in one context but not wrong in another.
something could be wrong in one context but not wrong in another.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
look at Larry Tatum ...the first technique up to 00:35 seconds in the clip...
you can see where Master Ken gets his "re stomp the groin Joke. 2:00 to 2:30
this is something i do not like about kenpo. it looks fancy and while it may take a lot of skill needed to do what Larry Tatum does, it is void of the reality of true violence. as others often point out, no one during a real fight is going to stand there (or lie there) while you do 15 strikes on them. the practice of rapid fire strikes is one thing , doing 50 of them is something all together different.
and again,, and again..
this is the practice of striking for the sake of striking. it has no relevance in self protection, street fighting, MMA or any other competitive aspect of martial arts.
you can see where Master Ken gets his "re stomp the groin Joke. 2:00 to 2:30
this is something i do not like about kenpo. it looks fancy and while it may take a lot of skill needed to do what Larry Tatum does, it is void of the reality of true violence. as others often point out, no one during a real fight is going to stand there (or lie there) while you do 15 strikes on them. the practice of rapid fire strikes is one thing , doing 50 of them is something all together different.
this is the practice of striking for the sake of striking. it has no relevance in self protection, street fighting, MMA or any other competitive aspect of martial arts.
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hoshin1600
Senior Master
same problem here but i will also point out a different aspect of kenpo i do not like. this clip is labeled as "speed" while speed is needed for combat, speed should not be sacrificed for power. i call this slap and tickle. most of these "speed" strikes will not have any power and certainly will not stop an actual attacker. it could stun and surprise them but not stop them.
maybe i should point out that i am a 3rd degree black belt and was an instructor for many years in kempo. so i am familiar with the style. in my experience there was never any importance or instruction on how to strike with power. i had to leave the system and study Okinawan karate to learn that aspect.
FIrst, I'd like to say theres nothing wrong the attacker doing the traditional punch to up, stance and all, in a way that if the defender doesnt move theyre gonna get hurt. Plenty of MA schools do this and have students who are capable of Defending themselves because of that danger. Idk how many times I lost focus at just the wrong moment and got my nose or mouth busted.
But, the problem I've seen with American Kenpo here in this thread and in others, is that the defender is doing wayyyyy too much. after one or two moves, if you havent put the guy down he's just gonna attack again. We teach all gold belts and up (gold is where students are expected to have their own SD moves) that 2-3 is the most they should be doing, with 3 being the "It's a good one for belt test to showcase moves, but understand it's too much for SD" number. Anymore, and you're probably gonna get clocked trying to showoff
I dont know if these videos are a poor representation, or what. I've personally never been able to train with a Kenpo student as there isnt one in my area. But from what I have seen, thats big issue I have.
But, the problem I've seen with American Kenpo here in this thread and in others, is that the defender is doing wayyyyy too much. after one or two moves, if you havent put the guy down he's just gonna attack again. We teach all gold belts and up (gold is where students are expected to have their own SD moves) that 2-3 is the most they should be doing, with 3 being the "It's a good one for belt test to showcase moves, but understand it's too much for SD" number. Anymore, and you're probably gonna get clocked trying to showoff
I dont know if these videos are a poor representation, or what. I've personally never been able to train with a Kenpo student as there isnt one in my area. But from what I have seen, thats big issue I have.
Like what? What don't you like? Come on....
I would call it bad video. I don't dislike the Tatum stuff, but it is clearly a production, and not real fighting. You should do what he does, but you need to cover some serious distance in real life. They don't stand there. I forgive him, because it would look like crap if it were real. Fighting isn't as pretty as he makes it out to be.
I would also like to point out that the overkill, you see, is scripted stuff, we are supposed to remember, but most of the time you would "Graft" to a choke, or some other favorite. The extensions are just busy work, for the most part. The technique and it's extention are like little Katas, or Form-etts.
This can be debatable. From a scientific standpoint, Kinetic=1/2 Mass X Velocity^2, while Momentum = mass X Velocity. Speed generates Force, and is important for hitting harder. One thing did see in the video you posted though, was that there wasnt any drive or penetration, which is the most important part regardless of if you have a speed or power philosophy.
It doesnt matter how hard or fast you hit, if you arent driving through a target that will put him down, he wont go down. If someone knows how to take a hit, a solar plexus shot isnt going to drop them, regardless of how much power you have. But a fast strike to chin's sweet spot might. I would agree call what he was doing "slap and tickle," looked more like a kung fu movie than a SD tech
hoshin1600
Senior Master
lets look at the difference between these two
important aspects to note would be the cadence of the strikes. where kenpo does multiple strikes in a flury, Bas will strike pause, strike pause.
Bahng, bahng, bahng....dangada, dangada, dang
important aspects to note would be the cadence of the strikes. where kenpo does multiple strikes in a flury, Bas will strike pause, strike pause.
Bahng, bahng, bahng....dangada, dangada, dang
Just for the record my teacher would beat me with a stick if he saw me doing Kenpo like that.
I like a lot of what Bas Rutten has to say about self defense in some of his videos.
It looks nothing like what is taught in a kenpo class however
It looks nothing like what is taught in a kenpo class however
hoshin1600
Senior Master
i agree but..this would be an over simplification of the complex physics of a human strike. many people refer to this equation but it is only a part. as you pointed out there is a lack of penetration. there are also factors such as "time on target" and torque. the kinetic energy example works well for ballistics because the explosion of force causes the bullet to move. after that initial force there is no longer any force applied, on the contrary a punch also has a factor of torque or "push" involved. the force of a powerfull punch does not stop upon an initial burst but continues and should actually build and push into the target. there is kinetic energy in a punch but there also has to be a transfer of that energy into the target. the longer the punching hand remains on the target the more of that energy will be absorbed into the target. this is time on target.
kenpo tends to have a fast strike but in order to execute multiple strikes, the striking hand has to begin its next action and reverse direction before the generated kinetic energy can be transfered. many times in the anticipation of the next strike the practitioner will unknowingly be using apposing muscles to reverse the direction of the hand before the first strike is completed, this reduces the speed and the power for each strike.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
the next thing i dont really like in kenpo (and i have had this discussion before) is the insistence that the system is scientific. i have challenged people here before on this. please explain where and how it is scientific. the usually reply is that "it just is". like most other systems it does have a method of training and theory. the universal pattern and such is a theory of combative tactics. it is not unlike wing chun which has the center and central line theory and the six gates theory. this is not science. science from my perspective would be things like, studies done on how the body re generates muscle cells after iron shirt or iron palm training or how the neural networks in your brain function for self defense while under the stress of combat. so far any attempt to define how kenpo is scientific would also apply equally to any and every other martial art.
my point of course is that the tag line used in kenpo is that it is scientific and modern, thus making the assumption and presenting the art as somehow better than the others. this is just simply is not true and in todays society there really is no need to market an art as modern when it was created over 50 years ago.
my point of course is that the tag line used in kenpo is that it is scientific and modern, thus making the assumption and presenting the art as somehow better than the others. this is just simply is not true and in todays society there really is no need to market an art as modern when it was created over 50 years ago.
You have to realize why that was being said. It means there are no mystical forces at work. And, it means only that. Everything else is something you added.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
a modern and scientific combative art would take into account the studies and practices that we have learned over the last 50 years....
On Combat The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and Peace Beyond Intractability
"There is a wide range of possible responses and experiences during extreme high stress events. Sharper focus, visual clarity, slow-motion time, temporary paralysis, dissociation, and intrusive thoughts can all occur. When dissociation (a detachment from physical and emotional reality) occurs, it may be a red flag for the onset of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Loss of bladder and bowel control during moments of intensity is a common occurrence that is rarely discussed."
"Heart rate increase in response to fear is correlated with a deterioration of motor skills and senses like vision and hearing. Eventually cognitive abilities degrade to a point Grossman calls condition black (based off of work done by Bruce Siddle and Jeff Cooper). He gives conditions white, yellow, red, gray, and black, with white being unconcerned and black being overwhelmed. He believes high pressure situations call for condition yellow in which motor and cognitive skills are functioning at peak performance. Condition black is said to be when the heart rate gets above 175 beats per minute because of the influx of adrenaline from stress. At this point vasoconstriction, the tightening of the blood vessels, allows less oxygen to the brain. The mid-brain, the part we share with animals like dogs and bears, takes over. Rational thought goes out the window."
Training as realistically as possible is important. Repeated actions allow the warrior to act without thinking, as though they were on "autopilot". It is actually possible to be scared speechless. Rehearsing the appropriate words can prevent this from happening.
On Combat Media Violence
Dr. Artwohl’s research found that 74 percent of the officers involved in a deadly force encounter acted on automatic pilot. In other words, the actions of three out of four officers in combat were done without conscious thought.
Whatever is drilled in during training comes out the other end in combat--no more, no less
"Whatever you would make habitual, practise it; and if you would not make a thing habitual, do not practise it, but habituate yourself to something else."
- Epictetus (1st century A.D.)
How the Semblances of Things are to be Combated
with these in mind i would like to again state that there is nothing WRONG with kenpo. what is wrong... is my own expectations and the disconnect between my own personal needs and what kenpo has to offer. what i might find unexceptable will and could be exactly what the next person is looking for.
my individual focus is on what has now been coined as "reality self defense" . i prefer a martial art that has a minimal curriculum. i find kenpo has to much to remember. my own practice has only 3 kicks and few hand strikes. i want to train these few things until they become hard wired into my brain. studies have shown that during combat, more response choices slow the response time down considerably.
On Combat The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and Peace Beyond Intractability
"There is a wide range of possible responses and experiences during extreme high stress events. Sharper focus, visual clarity, slow-motion time, temporary paralysis, dissociation, and intrusive thoughts can all occur. When dissociation (a detachment from physical and emotional reality) occurs, it may be a red flag for the onset of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Loss of bladder and bowel control during moments of intensity is a common occurrence that is rarely discussed."
"Heart rate increase in response to fear is correlated with a deterioration of motor skills and senses like vision and hearing. Eventually cognitive abilities degrade to a point Grossman calls condition black (based off of work done by Bruce Siddle and Jeff Cooper). He gives conditions white, yellow, red, gray, and black, with white being unconcerned and black being overwhelmed. He believes high pressure situations call for condition yellow in which motor and cognitive skills are functioning at peak performance. Condition black is said to be when the heart rate gets above 175 beats per minute because of the influx of adrenaline from stress. At this point vasoconstriction, the tightening of the blood vessels, allows less oxygen to the brain. The mid-brain, the part we share with animals like dogs and bears, takes over. Rational thought goes out the window."
Training as realistically as possible is important. Repeated actions allow the warrior to act without thinking, as though they were on "autopilot". It is actually possible to be scared speechless. Rehearsing the appropriate words can prevent this from happening.
On Combat Media Violence
Dr. Artwohl’s research found that 74 percent of the officers involved in a deadly force encounter acted on automatic pilot. In other words, the actions of three out of four officers in combat were done without conscious thought.
Whatever is drilled in during training comes out the other end in combat--no more, no less
"Whatever you would make habitual, practise it; and if you would not make a thing habitual, do not practise it, but habituate yourself to something else."
- Epictetus (1st century A.D.)
How the Semblances of Things are to be Combated
with these in mind i would like to again state that there is nothing WRONG with kenpo. what is wrong... is my own expectations and the disconnect between my own personal needs and what kenpo has to offer. what i might find unexceptable will and could be exactly what the next person is looking for.
my individual focus is on what has now been coined as "reality self defense" . i prefer a martial art that has a minimal curriculum. i find kenpo has to much to remember. my own practice has only 3 kicks and few hand strikes. i want to train these few things until they become hard wired into my brain. studies have shown that during combat, more response choices slow the response time down considerably.
