What's the difference between Taiji and wrestling, or boxing?

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
33,027
Reaction score
7,708
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I can understand that reasoning, but at the same time I feel like that’s an admission that someone simply does not really know taiji. And maybe that is the simple truth, and most people who can use it are actually adapting the taiji forms into some other method. That gets to the heart of what I’m saying. I suspect taiji has its own methodology for doing that. I didn’t learn it so I don’t know what it is. But I suspect it is supposed to be there. It may actually look like some other systems, or not, I don’t know. But I would like to know what it is.

At any rate, if we walked into a taiji school and saw the students just drilling the basics, throwing punch after punch, kick after kick, but doing it according to some taiji theory and methodology, I think that would be interesting.

What I do know is that a lot of things simply do not work well when done on the wrong foundation. From what I have seen of Fukien crane or southern mantis, I think a lot of Tibetan crane techniques would not work well on those foundations, for example. The theory and expression of the techniques is simply different and in many cases is not compatible. So when people do taiji on a foundation adapted from another system, I wonder if similar problems exist. Perhaps it is functional, while at the same time it never reaches the full potential because it isn’t on the proper taiji foundation.

Honestly, I’m not sure if I am expressing my thoughts clearly. Doing the best I can.
I didn’t say I agree with Adam Hsu, but I do not disagree either, mostly because it is Adam Hsu.

Taijiquan is often combined with other things and yes it does lose something and sometimes what it loses is major, the entire relaxation part. Watch competition push hands (my first shifu had us doing this), it is a skill, but in my opinion it is not taijiquan, to much muscle against muscle. Do push hands with my shifu, Yang Jwing Ming, or for that matter Wang Rengang (Yiquan), and you will feel a major difference. You get taken off balance and sometimes you don’t even know how you got there, or you get qinna applied to you and in the case on my shifu, you don’t know how you got there, with Yang Jwing Ming I could feel it coming, but could not stop it, but it was relaxed. WIth Wang Rengang the same thing with being taken off your center, but then he adds the surprise (where the heck did that come from) back fist in your face. But none of them force anything.
 
Last edited:

Oily Dragon

Master of Arts
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
1,863
Reaction score
846
Just because elements survive, that’s not the same as an art surviving. If Daito-Ryu ceased to be (including Aikido styles that appear to be a renaming of Daito-Ryu, without some of the direct combat aspects), but Nihon Goshin Aikido (which contains elements of it) survived in its current form, that would not be Daito-Ryu surviving, but it leaving a legacy.
There are elements in TCC that go back to the I Ching. That's survival. And from there roll up another 1500 years into the modern family forms.

I found it in easy to find a very skilled martially trained Yang and Chen stylist.

The talk about TCC dying is really silly. It's always there waiting for a new martial artist to pick it up any day of the week. People still dig TC all over the world. And many of them are martial artists that will not have a problem with learning or applying it. Thousands of teachers, libraries of books on the subject, and endless videos, plenty of which are instructive.

It's not like the Dark Arts or something mystical that will be lost. Boxing and wrestling haven't been necessary occupation skills in our lifetimes, they're still popular too.

The sky is not falling on TCC. It's more accessible than ever. You don't even need to live in Chen Village, or know someone who did anymore.
 
Last edited:

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,801
Reaction score
4,324
Location
San Francisco
I didn’t say I agree with Adam Hsu, but I do not disagree either, mostly because it is Adam Hsu.

Taijiquan is often combined with other things and yes it does lose something and sometimes what it loses is major, the entire relaxation part. Watch competition push hands (my first shifu had us doing this), it is a skill, but in my opinion it is not taijiquan, to much muscle against muscle. Do push hands with my shifu, Yang Jwing Ming, or for that matter Wang Rengang (Yiquan), and you will feel a major difference. You get taken off balance and sometimes you don’t even know how you got there, or you get qinna applied to you and in the case on my shifu, you don’t know how you got there, with Yang Jwing Ming I could feel it coming, but could not stop it, but it was relaxed. WIth Wang Rengang the same thing with being taken off your center, but then he adds the surprise (where the heck did that come from) back fist in your face. But none of them force anything.
Then I guess my question is, how did your Sifu, Sifu Yang Jwing among, and Sifu Wang Rengang do it? Did they develop it through a proper Taiji foundation as I am imagining? Or did they graft it onto something else?
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
28,339
Reaction score
9,351
Location
Hendersonville, NC
There are elements in TCC that go back to the I Ching. That's survival. And from there roll up another 1500 years into the modern family forms.

I found it in easy to find a very skilled martially trained Yang and Chen stylist.

The talk about TCC dying is really silly. It's always there waiting for a new martial artist to pick it up any day of the week. People still dig TC all over the world. And many of them are martial artists that will not have a problem with learning or applying it. Thousands of teachers, libraries of books on the subject, and endless videos, plenty of which are instructive.

It's not like the Dark Arts or something mystical that will be lost. Boxing and wrestling haven't been necessary occupation skills in our lifetimes, they're still popular too.

The sky is not falling on TCC. It's more accessible than ever. You don't even need to live in Chen Village, or know someone who did anymore.
"Elements" aren't the art. There are elements of NGA that go back hundreds of years, but the art is definitely less than 80 years old.

The process I see with TCC is similar to what happens with languages. Yes, a language continues so long as someone is actually speaking it, and it can be picked up by someone else at any time. But once the native speakers fall below a certain point, the likelihood of it continuing as a living language drops dramatically, because there are fewer and fewer chances for people to learn it as a full language, as it is spoken.

As martially-trained exponents of an art become scarcer (and in the case of TCC, are outnumbered by non-martial exponents), the chances of it continuing as an active, complete art decline dramatically.

The comparison to boxing is odd. You can walk into a boxing gym in most American towns and get boxing lessons from someone who is well-versed in the full range of boxing. That's not nearly so easy to find for TCC, from what I've seen - you're far more likely to find someone who teaches the health side...and only knows that part.
 

Oily Dragon

Master of Arts
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
1,863
Reaction score
846
"Elements" aren't the art. There are elements of NGA that go back hundreds of years, but the art is definitely less than 80 years old.

The process I see with TCC is similar to what happens with languages. Yes, a language continues so long as someone is actually speaking it, and it can be picked up by someone else at any time. But once the native speakers fall below a certain point, the likelihood of it continuing as a living language drops dramatically, because there are fewer and fewer chances for people to learn it as a full language, as it is spoken.

As martially-trained exponents of an art become scarcer (and in the case of TCC, are outnumbered by non-martial exponents), the chances of it continuing as an active, complete art decline dramatically.

The comparison to boxing is odd. You can walk into a boxing gym in most American towns and get boxing lessons from someone who is well-versed in the full range of boxing. That's not nearly so easy to find for TCC, from what I've seen - you're far more likely to find someone who teaches the health side...and only knows that part.
Funny, for me boxing was just as easy to find as martial TCC.

I guess your mileage varies, eh Gerry?

As far as elements not being the art, that doesn't apply to Tai Chi Chuan at all. That's all TCC ever had.
 

Oily Dragon

Master of Arts
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
1,863
Reaction score
846
The comparison to boxing is odd. You can walk into a boxing gym in most American towns and get boxing lessons from someone who is well-versed in the full range of boxing.
This is also really funny and untrue.

Youve watched too much Rocky.
 

Wing Woo Gar

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
2,089
Reaction score
1,030
Location
Northern California
This is also really funny and untrue.

Youve watched too much Rocky.
I’m not sure what it is that caused this argument. I’m not sure what it even means. I’m sure I trained tai chi as a martial art. Anyone can look up my Sigung and find that out. I’m also reasonably sure that we would all agree on what that means on a physical level. I also believe that you, and Xue and Wang all actually trained it in a martial way as well. If we are arguing about the availability of available instruction with martial as the focus then that is clearly subjective. If we are arguing about whether it exists, then I am sure we can give some examples of living teachers that produce high quality practitioners right?
 

Unkogami

Purple Belt
Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Messages
302
Reaction score
95
How did that go? How were they different? In teaching style and in application? How do you feel that training was good or bad for whatever reason?
Edifying. I trained with a very highly respected member of the Chen lineage early mornings outside the wall at Xi'an, then longfist evenings in the Muslim quarter of the city with a very old teacher and a much younger trainer who put everything into practice. I wasn't at either place to judge or evaluate, I just wanted to learn. A very good experience on both ends. I also spent a lot of time working out with the Shaanxi provincial wrestling team as well, so I kept pretty busy.
 
OP
Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,151
Reaction score
3,532
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I also spent a lot of time working out with the Shaanxi provincial wrestling team as well, so I kept pretty busy.
I have heard the Shaanxi wrestling has 81 different ways to apply "single leg". Have you heard about it? Do you know some of those moves?

Here is one of the "single leg" used in Shaanxi wrestling.

 

Wing Woo Gar

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
2,089
Reaction score
1,030
Location
Northern California
Edifying. I trained with a very highly respected member of the Chen lineage early mornings outside the wall at Xi'an, then longfist evenings in the Muslim quarter of the city with a very old teacher and a much younger trainer who put everything into practice. I wasn't at either place to judge or evaluate, I just wanted to learn. A very good experience on both ends. I also spent a lot of time working out with the Shaanxi provincial wrestling team as well, so I kept pretty busy.
Thank you for that.
 
Top