What's the difference between Taiji and wrestling, or boxing?

[Kung Fu Wang]

I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a

- wrestler - to take his opponent down?
- boxer - to knock his opponent down?

If the goal are

- the same, the training method should be similar.
- different, what is a Taiji person goal?

What's your opinion on this?

Taiji:

Wrestling:

Boxing:

 

[Xue Sheng]

we have been down this road before, and no I will not waste time looking for YouTube videos for you.....it is obvious you have something against what you "think" taijiquan is......I will not get into this again with you, there is more to "real" taijiquan than pushing, told you that several times. It has strikes, kicks, qinna and even shuaijiao, it has also been referred to as stand up wrestling....and if you look at Southern Wu style training in Toronto (Wu family)...they train break falls.... because of the shuaijiao..... something that sadly many taiji styles these days forgot....

now carry on dissing taijiquan that I believe you learned in Taiwan..... I will stop there

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Since you agree with me that "Taiji and wrestling share the same goal." There is nothing to argue between you and I.

In another forum, one person said, "Taiji and wrestling share the same goal". Someone disagreed and said, "If you feel taiji is not much different than grappling,,,for you it may not be...for others "myself" included it may be totally different...".

So I just wonder who's opinion belong to the majority?

1. Taiji and wrestling share the same goal, or
2. Taiji and wrestling share different goals?

Here is a clip to show that Taiji and wrestling share the same goal.

 

[drop bear]

I would have said taijiquan and sumo were the closest in concept.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Since you agree with me that "Taiji and wrestling share the same goal." There is nothing to argue between you and I.

In another forum, one person said, "Taiji and wrestling share the same goal". Someone disagreed and said, "If you feel taiji is not much different than grappling,,,for you it may not be...for others "myself" included it may be totally different...".

So I just wonder who's opinion belong to the majority?

1. Taiji and wrestling share the same goal, or
2. Taiji and wrestling share different goals?

Here is a clip to show that Taiji and wrestling share the same goal.

Taiji shares similar goals with both wrestling and boxing.... Taijiquan just goes about it slightly differently.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I would have said taijiquan and sumo were the closest in concept.

You might be on to something there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taiji shares similar goals with both wrestling and boxing.... Taijiquan just goes about it slightly differently.

I agree with you 100% on this. When Taiji people disagree with me, I just like to know their reasons.

Even the Bagua system shares the same goal with wrestling.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a

- wrestler - to take his opponent down?
- boxer - to knock his opponent down?

If the goal are

- the same, the training method should be similar.
- different, what is a Taiji person goal?

Your statement relies on the assumption that there is only one way to reach a given goal. This is an assumption you seem to make quite often, but it is false.

 

[Alan0354]

Your statement relies on the assumption that there is only one way to reach a given goal. This is an assumption you seem to make quite often, but it is false.

He seems to see everything is black and white and take every move and concept literally. Like whether turning the shoulder 90deg or 120deg or 180deg when punching. Life is full of grey area depends on the situation. Using the punching example, to me, it's the concept of using the shoulder to add to the punch to get more power, in real fight, you cannot say you HAVE to turn at the exact angle every time to be this style or that style.

It's like to me, Karate and Tae Kwon Do are very similar(like you said the goal), yes, if you analyze every kick and punch, they are very different like Tae Kwon Do always pick the knee up very high to kick and the pivot is a little different. But I've seen people in the class (TKD) that didn't pick the knee very high BECAUSE he was not as flexible. But he still kick the side kick very good, strong and fast. People's body are not built the same, there is no exact one way or the other. It's the concept like you have to pivot when you do the side kick(like turning the shoulder when punching) to maximize power, then you practice the best you can and call it a day.

Ha ha, I am surprised sumo and Taichi are close in concept!!! I have no opinion, I don't know either one.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree with you 100% on this. When Taiji people disagree with me, I just like to know their reasons.

1) they were shown wrong or trained wrong in the first place
2) they do not want to know
3) The believe the storie
4) any or all of the above

Had several "Taiji" people get upset, had one actually walk out in the middle of class when I ws discussing, not showing, the application of one form he was interested in. The lady that walked out said, loudly "I'M HERE TO STUDY TAIJIQUAN, NOT KARATE" Then she stormed out.

Was working with another gentleman with the 2 person form and I was trying to get him to understand he needed to complete the move or he could get hurt. He got very condescending and said" I train TAIJI...NOT martial arts" and he walked out....

Had others look shocked when the asked about applications and I told them, had one couple look almost sick after they asked me what this specific form in the Dao form was for...when I responded. "Block the spear, or staff, grab spear or staff, hit him in the throat with the dao"

People, especially in taijiquan, believe the myth or are only there for the health benefits, and that is fine, but then don't get upset if you, or someone else, asks and an answer is given

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He got very condescending and said" I train TAIJI...NOT martial arts" and he walked out....

I have similar experience as you do.

Many years ago, I taught a Taiji class in Austin Community College. During the 1st day of the Taiji class, I showed the basic stances:

- horse stance for "open position stance".
- Bow-arrow stance for "diagnoal fly".
- 4-6 stance for "pull back".
- empty stance for "needle at the bottom of the sea".
- 7 star stance for "defend hand".
- golden rooster stance for "rooster on one leg".
- ...

Since it was the 1st class, I only showed the stance without the upperbody hand movement. One guy stood up, said, "This is not Taiji", and left.

Another time I played push hand with a Taij guy.

- I grabbed his wrist, He said "No grabbing".
- I used shin bite to control his leading leg. He said, "No leg".
- I got him into a head lock. He said "No brute force".
- When he pushed me, I used stealing step to escape, he said, "You lose."

 

[Alan0354]

1) they were shown wrong or trained wrong in the first place
2) they do not want to know
3) The believe the storie
4) any or all of the above

Had several "Taiji" people get upset, had one actually walk out in the middle of class when I ws discussing, not showing, the application of one form he was interested in. The lady that walked out said, loudly "I'M HERE TO STUDY TAIJIQUAN, NOT KARATE" Then she stormed out.

Was working with another gentleman with the 2 person form and I was trying to get him to understand he needed to complete the move or he could get hurt. He got very condescending and said" I train TAIJI...NOT martial arts" and he walked out....

Had others look shocked when the asked about applications and I told them, had one couple look almost sick after they asked me what this specific form in the Dao form was for...when I responded. "Block the spear, or staff, grab spear or staff, hit him in the throat with the dao"

People, especially in taijiquan, believe the myth or are only there for the health benefits, and that is fine, but then don't get upset if you, or someone else, asks and an answer is given

Seems like there are lot of people are very close minded in MA. I like that you show other styles in your class. The TKD school I went to for a few years was really kick boxing strongly influenced by Bruce Lee ( it was 1984). So we really didn't spend a lot of time in traditional TKD. We only practice those forms two weeks before the belt test, then dropped them after the test for another few months!!

MA is constantly evolving in the last 50 years, even the expert are trying to learn and mix in other techniques. I remember my teacher invited a Jujitsu instructor to teach the class once a while. That to me was vision, almost 10 years before Gracie cleaned house. We all got to learn a little of it. Those that are close minded are only hurting themselves.

 

[Oily Dragon]

1) they were shown wrong or trained wrong in the first place
2) they do not want to know
3) The believe the storie
4) any or all of the above

Had several "Taiji" people get upset, had one actually walk out in the middle of class when I ws discussing, not showing, the application of one form he was interested in. The lady that walked out said, loudly "I'M HERE TO STUDY TAIJIQUAN, NOT KARATE" Then she stormed out.

Was working with another gentleman with the 2 person form and I was trying to get him to understand he needed to complete the move or he could get hurt. He got very condescending and said" I train TAIJI...NOT martial arts" and he walked out....

Had others look shocked when the asked about applications and I told them, had one couple look almost sick after they asked me what this specific form in the Dao form was for...when I responded. "Block the spear, or staff, grab spear or staff, hit him in the throat with the dao"

People, especially in taijiquan, believe the myth or are only there for the health benefits, and that is fine, but then don't get upset if you, or someone else, asks and an answer is given

I once saw a mom rip her son out of a class because we were practicing Lion Dance, and she said it was Devil worship.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I once saw a mom rip her son out of a class because we were practicing Lion Dance, and she said it was Devil worship.

Should have asked her if she wanted to join your D&D game after...

 

[Oily Dragon]

Should have asked her if she wanted to join your D&D game after...

She wasn't my type.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

1) they were shown wrong or trained wrong in the first place
2) they do not want to know
3) The believe the storie
4) any or all of the above

Had several "Taiji" people get upset, had one actually walk out in the middle of class when I ws discussing, not showing, the application of one form he was interested in. The lady that walked out said, loudly "I'M HERE TO STUDY TAIJIQUAN, NOT KARATE" Then she stormed out.

Was working with another gentleman with the 2 person form and I was trying to get him to understand he needed to complete the move or he could get hurt. He got very condescending and said" I train TAIJI...NOT martial arts" and he walked out....

Had others look shocked when the asked about applications and I told them, had one couple look almost sick after they asked me what this specific form in the Dao form was for...when I responded. "Block the spear, or staff, grab spear or staff, hit him in the throat with the dao"

People, especially in taijiquan, believe the myth or are only there for the health benefits, and that is fine, but then don't get upset if you, or someone else, asks and an answer is given

Sifu Woo said once “ you can see 1,000,000 Chinese doing Tai Chi in Beijing and 999,999 aren’t doing a damn thing.“ His question to students was always “ can you do it while I hit you?” That is harsh, but honestly I can’t tell you how many Tai chi people don’t even know you can reverse the form and do it to the left. His standards were impossibly high, but I guess that’s the only way to keep moving the mountain with a spoon for as long as it takes to get high skill. I will hope to get a taste of that some day. 25 years feels like I just started to get a very basic understanding.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sifu Woo said once “ you can see 1,000,000 Chinese doing Tai Chi in Beijing and 999,999 aren’t doing a damn thing.“ His question to students was always “ can you do it while I hit you?” That is harsh, but honestly I can’t tell you how many Tai chi people don’t even know you can reverse the form and do it to the left. His standards were impossibly high, but I guess that’s the only way to keep moving the mountain with a spoon for as long as it takes to get high skill. I will hope to get a taste of that some day. 25 years feels like I just started to get a very basic understanding.

Funny you say this. I do all my weapons on the left as well as the right. That includes fundamentals and the forms.

I also do some of my empty-hand forms on the left as well. Some are highly one-sided so those get done on the other side, some I am still working on. But I feel it’s a good exercise for the brain. Your weak side will always be weaker, but that’s ok, you can still develop functional skill.

And because zombies.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have similar experience as you do.

Many years ago, I taught a Taiji class in Austin Community College. During the 1st day of the Taiji class, I showed the basic stances:

- horse stance for "open position stance".
- Bow-arrow stance for "diagnoal fly".
- 4-6 stance for "pull back".
- empty stance for "needle at the bottom of the sea".
- 7 star stance for "defend hand".
- golden rooster stance for "rooster on one leg".
- ...

Since it was the 1st class, I only showed the stance without the upperbody hand movement. One guy stood up, said, "This is not Taiji", and left.

Another time I played push hand with a Taij guy.

- I grabbed his wrist, He said "No grabbing".
- I used shin bite to control his leading leg. He said, "No leg".
- I got him into a head lock. He said "No brute force".
- When he pushed me, I used stealing step to escape, he said, "You lose."

Was at a push hands seminar at YMAA with Dr Yang, when he was still in Boston. i was pushing with one of his students who continually told me, "You can't do that" I asked why so he called Dr Yang over and told him what I was doing and then said "He can't do that" to which Dr Yang said..."why?". Dr Yang then did push hands with me to show his student what to do...and promptly dropped me to my knees, multiple times with pressure points and qinna.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I once saw a mom rip her son out of a class because we were practicing Lion Dance, and she said it was Devil worship.

Was once asked by a bunch of ministers to teach then Taijiquan...they were all for it...until I told them what it would cost...all of a sudden it became a religious problem for them to study something that was based in Taoism......

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i was pushing with one of his students who continually told me, "You can't do that"

This is the main reason for me to start this thread. I would like to get respond from Taiji people about the reason that why "you can't do that"?

One time I dragged a Taiji guy in circle. He also told me, "You can't do that."

I though I followed the Taiji principle to borrow his yielding force. I pulled him. He yielded and came to me. I helped him to come toward me more than he wanted to.