What's a unique thing about each Kwan?

[IcemanSK]

When the original kwans were around, I'm sure there was something unique to each of them. Like, a particular technique or focus. Does anyone know what those things may be for any of the kwans. The only one I've heard (please correct me if I'm wrong) was that Jidokwan had more judo influence because of connections of the founders.

Does anyone know what was unique or a strong trait in the other kwans?

 

[tellner]

There were certainly some stylistic differences. But they were all Shotokan mixed with a little Judo. What more need be said?

 

[foot2face]

There were certainly some stylistic differences. But they were all Shotokan mixed with a little Judo. What more need be said?

This statement is not completely accurate. The original kwans were predominately striking systems, some with a few pins and take downs but not the sophisticated throws and joint locks associated with Judo or Hapkido. Those influences came later as the kwans began to merge into a single TKD system, practitioners also brought with them knowledge of other style such as Judo and Hapkido but not necessarily to incorporate grappling into TKD but to gain an understanding of these styles and how to effectively strike against them. The joint locks and throws seen in TKD schools today come directly from Hapkido or Judo which are often taught alongside TKD in order to balance it's harshness. TKD is a hard style striking system with no real scale of escalating force, it's typically all or nothing. This extreme force is not always appropriate but it is difficult to be effective with TKD if you hold back so techniques from Hapkido and Judo are often taught, allowing the practitioner the option of subduing and controlling their adversary not just to beat them senseless.

With regard to stylistic differences between the kwans; Chang Moo Kwan had a good deal of Chuan Fa influence as well as Shotokan and I was told that they practiced CMA forms along with JMA kata.

 

[exile]

My lineage Kwan's name, Song Moo Kwan, is an almost literal translation of Shoto Kan: the later, incorporating Funakoshi's nom de plume `Shoto', waving pines, translates as Waving Pine Tree Hall (or House); the former is Korean for Pine Tree Hall of Martial Training. Byung Jik Ro was first and foremost a Shotokan devotee (fourth dan under Gichin Funakoshi) , and it shows; SMK emphasizes hand and elbow techs and low-to-midbody kicks, with pins and locks designed to set up strikes.

This last point is relevant: Shotokan preserves, even in somewhat attentuated form, the Tuite elements of its Okinawan sources that used controlling moves, including throws, not along the Judo/Aikido strategic line of using joint stress to defeat the assailant, but rather as a tactical means to force the attacker into a position where a high-value target—typically the head and neck—were brought within range of a knifehand strike to the throat, a hammerfist to the temples, an elbow strike to the middle of the face, and so on. And SMK, faithful as it is to its Shotokan parent, incorporates the same joint control elements. We were taught to use the upward `chambering' part of a down `block' as a forcible pivot point against the assailant's elbow (just above, actually) when the latter's arm was fully extended by a `chambering retraction' of the other fist (which is, in fact, holding onto the assailant's trapped wrist after an agressive grip has been reversed). A `front stance' projecting the defender's full body weight into the pin, and down (the `low' part of the `low stance') forces the attacker's head down, and the followup down `block' is thus a hammer fist to the attacker's temple, carotid sinus, jaw, or a range of weak points below the necks (a collarbone break, e.g.) or the upper arm.

From what I've been able to find out, SMK was the most literally Shotokan of all the Kwan styles; even our approach to hyungs is harder, more abrupt and rhythmically varied than what I've seen of hyung performance in other Kwan styles, but very much along the lines of Shotokan kata performance. I'm sure there's more to the story, though... there always is!

 

[Kodiak61]

Not an expert, however I think the exact origin of TKD will be hard if not impossible to pin down. The reading on the subject I have done leads me to believe that TKD is a generic term (please no rotten fruit, vegetables, or eggs). The same way karate can be generic as well as specific. Wado Ryu Karate-Do, Shotokan karate, etc. The style I study is called Youn Wha Ryu Tae Kwon Do (younwha.com). We trace our TKD back to Kong Soo Do, the Korean pronunciation of the Japanese character that makes up the word karate. With the occupation of Korea by the Japanese, and their effort to “Nipponize” the Korea people did a lot to muddy the waters. When the Korea was liberated, the attempts to have an independent national identity lead the Koreans to resist any accusation with the Japanese. This, I believe, called for them to ignore the Japanese, or the Chinese for that matter, influence in a Korean martial arts. I believe each Kwan is as individual as each karate ryu.

 

[IcemanSK]

My lineage Kwan's name, Song Moo Kwan, is an almost literal translation of Shoto Kan: the later, incorporating Funakoshi's nom de plume `Shoto', waving pines, translates as Waving Pine Tree Hall (or House); the former is Korean for Pine Tree Hall of Martial Training. Byung Jik Ro was first and foremost a Shotokan devotee (fourth dan under Gichin Funakoshi) , and it shows; SMK emphasizes hand and elbow techs and low-to-midbody kicks, with pins and locks designed to set up strikes.

This last point is relevant: Shotokan preserves, even in somewhat attentuated form, the Tuite elements of its Okinawan sources that used controlling moves, including throws, not along the Judo/Aikido strategic line of using joint stress to defeat the assailant, but rather as a tactical means to force the attacker into a position where a high-value target—typically the head and neck—were brought within range of a knifehand strike to the throat, a hammerfist to the temples, an elbow strike to the middle of the face, and so on. And SMK, faithful as it is to its Shotokan parent, incorporates the same joint control elements. We were taught to use the upward `chambering' part of a down `block' as a forcible pivot point against the assailant's elbow (just above, actually) when the latter's arm was fully extended by a `chambering retraction' of the other fist (which is, in fact, holding onto the assailant's trapped wrist after an agressive grip has been reversed). A `front stance' projecting the defender's full body weight into the pin, and down (the `low' part of the `low stance') forces the attacker's head down, and the followup down `block' is thus a hammer fist to the attacker's temple, carotid sinus, jaw, or a range of weak points below the necks (a collarbone break, e.g.) or the upper arm.

From what I've been able to find out, SMK was the most literally Shotokan of all the Kwan styles; even our approach to hyungs is harder, more abrupt and rhythmically varied than what I've seen of hyung performance in other Kwan styles, but very much along the lines of Shotokan kata performance. I'm sure there's more to the story, though... there always is!

This is the kind thing I mean. I'm betting that someone from another would be able to pick out an SMK student simply because of the strong resembalance to Shotokan.

 

[terryl965]

Yes you are right, but remember over the years everything has really changed and the blending is so much that I will not participate in a decussion that has no correct answers. Each and almost every G.M. has there story of the way it was and that is where all the BS starts from.

 

[IcemanSK]

Yes you are right, but remember over the years everything has really changed and the blending is so much that I will not participate in a decussion that has no correct answers. Each and almost every G.M. has there story of the way it was and that is where all the BS starts from.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to start this discussion. To focus on the positive side of the uniqueness of the kwans. Each brought great things to the table. I think it's interesting to know what those were.

The design of Kukki-TKD was to combine them & make them One & no longer unique. Yeah, there are problems & personalities that want only to increase their little pieces of the TKD world as well. I just wanted to celebrate the uniqueness of the kwans.

 

[rmclain]

With regard to stylistic differences between the kwans; Chang Moo Kwan had a good deal of Chuan Fa influence as well as Shotokan and I was told that they practiced CMA forms along with JMA kata.

Yes, Changmoo-Kwan had lots of chuan-fa forms and techniques, but the karate influence was from Toyama Kanken's "shudokan," not "Shotokan" of Funakoshi Gichin.

Technique-wise:

Changmoo-Kwan: This kwan had the reputation for being, "Smooth yet hard, hard yet smooth" in their movements and sparring. This kwan (before 1956 or so) only allowed practice of the hand technique in sparring up to brown belt level. Once brown belt rank was reached, students were allowed to use kicking in sparring as well.

Jido-kwan: noted for their use of the front kick as a strong primary kicking technique. Though their seniors Chun Sang-sup and Yoon Kwe-byung had originally their club housed in the Chosun Yunmoo-Kwan yudo dojang and probably some students learned some yudo techniques on the side, Jido-kwan was not known for their throws or takedowns.

Chungdo-kwan: noted for the heavy use of the side kick and back fist.

R. McLain

 

[exile]

That's one of the reasons I wanted to start this discussion. To focus on the positive side of the uniqueness of the kwans. Each brought great things to the table. I think it's interesting to know what those were.

The design of Kukki-TKD was to combine them & make them One & no longer unique. Yeah, there are problems & personalities that want only to increase their little pieces of the TKD world as well. I just wanted to celebrate the uniqueness of the kwans.

A very worthy and desirable goal, one that does actually dovetail nicely with Terry's point about the enforced blending and pressure towards a `monoclonal' TKD carried out by various Korean uber-agencies in the 1950s and 60s—a process which has resulted I believe in a loss of the diversity in the art which is essential to the experimentation and competition among ideas and emphases so important to a healthy MA. I've posted before on what I think is wrong with the way TKD's development is largely driven by a central Korean directorate with a specific agenda very different from the original SD purposes of the art, no point in going into it yet again; but I'm glad to see signs that it's not just me who's interested in the individuality and technical variety of the Kwan era KMAs.

 

[foot2face]

Yes, Changmoo-Kwan had lots of chuan-fa forms and techniques, but the karate influence was from Toyama Kanken's "shudokan," not "Shotokan" of Funakoshi Gichin.

Thank you for correcting me Mr. McLain. It was an era I should have noticed. Once again your vast knowledge of TKD history has been demonstrated as well as appreciated.

 

[foot2face]

...the enforced blending and pressure towards a `monoclonal' TKD carried out by various Korean uber-agencies in the 1950s and 60s—a process which has resulted I believe in a loss of the diversity in the art which is essential to the experimentation and competition among ideas and emphases so important to a healthy MA.

I disagree with this statement and believe the reality to be quite the opposite. Before the "enforced blending" the kwans had little to no contact with one another, except for skirmishes among their students. Their instructors were also notoriously opposed to experimentation, you did things their way or not at all. It was the merging of the kwans that brought about experimentation and competition among ideas. The diversity can be seen in the Tae Geuk poomse which has the "Smooth yet hard, hard yet smooth" movement of " Changmoo-kwan, the strong use of the front kick by Jido-kwan as well as the side kick and backfist of Chungdo-kwan (thanks again Mr. McLain) not to mention the many other techniques and philosophies brought by the other kwans.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

I believe the Song Moo Kwan was also known for being very keen on the use of makiwara.

 

[howard]

...Jido-kwan was not known for their throws or takedowns.

Hi,

I trained for a few years in Ji Do Kwan some time ago, and my experience is consistent with this comment. I never saw any technique that even remotely resembled Judo, or even Jujutsu or Hapkido for that matter.

The primary emphases in the Ji Do Kwan dojangs where I trained were forms and free fighting (of the continuous sort). Most of the forms I learned were clearly from Shotokan originally.

I believe it's fair to say that Ji Do Kwan has produced a lot of very good free fighters. Several of the guys I trained with in NYC consistently did very well in open tournaments, in both forms and sparring.

Ji Do Kwan seems to use hand strikes much more than some other styles - and definitely much more than competition-oriented TKD.

 

[exile]

I disagree with this statement and believe the reality to be quite the opposite. Before the "enforced blending" the kwans had little to no contact with one another, except for skirmishes among their students. Their instructors were also notoriously opposed to experimentation, you did things their way or not at all.

I did not say that they had anything to do with each other. So why do you bring in, as part of your disagreement with my comments, a claim which contradicts nothing I actually said?

Nor did I say that the founders of the different kwans favored experimentation within their own kwans. What the indendent kwans offered collectively was a palette of different possibilities, some of which we are now exploring as people respond to this thread. Those alternative lines of development represented a set of diverse resources that subsequent generations of independent TKD school could have experimented with and used to cross-fertilize their own curricula. Once kwan independence was compromised, the technical agenda TKD was enforced across the board by the central TKD directorate that emerged in Korea as a result of first Gen. Choi's efforts via the KTA and latter the WTF/KKW alliance. Once again, you are challenging a point which I did not make.

It does no end of good, so far as a discussion is concerned, when you attend to what people have actually said, rather than attributing to them positions they never supported and then disagreeing with those. The latter strategy strikes me as a very poor use of time, including your own.

IIt was the merging of the kwans that brought about experimentation and competition among ideas. The diversity can be seen in the Tae Geuk poomse which has the "Smooth yet hard, hard yet smooth" movement of " Changmoo-kwan, the strong use of the front kick by Jido-kwan as well as the side kick and backfist of Chungdo-kwan (thanks again Mr. McLain) not to mention the many other techniques and philosophies brought by the other kwans.

Everyone of those techniques was already present in the original curricula of a number of the kwans, in particular the Pinan katas; these were taken often often in whole chunks into the Palgwes, and when the TKD directorate in its wisdom eliminated the former and marginalized the latter, the colored belt set they came up with, the Taegeuks, turned out to consist mostly of recycled bits and pieces of the Pinan/Palgwes, a point which is made clear in meticulous detail in Simon O'Neil's forthcoming book on combat applications of TKD hyungs, emphasizing the Taegeuks especially. So exactly how did this recombination of already existing hyung elements constitute `experimentation and competition among ideas'?? The fact is, we don't do the Taegeuks at all in my Song Moo Kwan dojang, but we use front kicks, side kicks, back fists, hammer fists, palm-heel and multi-angle elbow strikes and a full repertoire of hard hand/arm/elbow techs with a heavy SD emphasis. What we do looks nothing at all like the standard curriculum that the WTF/KKW attempts to enforce (we also do the Pinan, Rohai, Empi and a variety of other Japanese kata forms, which Byung-Jik Ro taught in the original SMK); it has all the diverse techniques of its Shotokan ancestor, along with a variety of mid and high kicks, taught for balance training primarily. And that's because, fortunately, a lot of the SMK schools around here didn't kowtow to the official TKD directorate line, but preserved the technical content of the SMK even after it got swallowed up in the WTF conglomerate in Korea.

I believe the Song Moo Kwan was also known for being very keen on the use of makiwara.

That's indeed the case, FD, as I understand it. I've read in one source that Byung-Jik Ro used the makiwara to train on well into advanced age, along with a number of other Shotokan training practices.
__________________

 

[IcemanSK]

Hi,

I trained for a few years in Ji Do Kwan some time ago, and my experience is consistent with this comment. I never saw any technique that even remotely resembled Judo, or even Jujutsu or Hapkido for that matter.

The primary emphases in the Ji Do Kwan dojangs where I trained were forms and free fighting (of the continuous sort). Most of the forms I learned were clearly from Shotokan originally.

I believe it's fair to say that Ji Do Kwan has produced a lot of very good free fighters. Several of the guys I trained with in NYC consistently did very well in open tournaments, in both forms and sparring.

Ji Do Kwan seems to use hand strikes much more than some other styles - and definitely much more than competition-oriented TKD.

Since you trained in JiDo Kwan, I'll take that & consider myself misinformed.

 

[howard]

Since you trained in JiDo Kwan, I'll take that & consider myself misinformed.

Hi Iceman,

Sorry if that post came across as authoritative, as that wasn't my intent... I imagine that Ji Do Kwan is taught differently across different schools. Some may very well teach self defense that uses techniques from Judo, Jujutsu and / or Hapkido. I was only speaking from my (limited) personal experience.

Regards...

 

[newGuy12]

I don't know if this qualifies as a special technique or focus (it does in my eyes, as it shows a certain kind of "spirit"). I found this document on the Web:

http://www.wtkd.co.uk/pdfs/The_Kwans_of_Taekwondo.pdf

I quote from it:

"From 1946 onwards, Lee worked hard with the police to rid the dangerous districts of Seoul of gangsters, and his school even became known as the National Police Headquarters dojang. Anyone with a black belt was given an honorary police badge."

-- referring to GrandMaster Lee Won Kuk, founder of Chung Do Kwan

 

[foot2face]

Ok, here is the quote once again:

… Terry's point about the enforced blending and pressure towards a `monoclonal' TKD carried out by various Korean uber-agencies in the 1950s and 60s—a process which has resulted I believe in a loss of the diversity in the art which is essential to the experimentation and competition among ideas and emphases so important to a healthy MA.

Please explain to me where I went wrong. From my perspective the quote starts with you making reference to Terry’s comments on the blending of the kwans (I should point out that he made no mention of it being forced by Korean uber-agencies, which strikes me as ironic since you criticized me for attributing you with a position you did not have and then commenting on it) and continues with you expressing your belief that the blending has resulted in a loss of diversity in the art. I simply related my difference of opinion (which I believe is the real reason why you criticized my post, how dare someone disagree with you) and gave a few examples as to why.

Everyone of those techniques was already present in the original curricula of a number of the kwans, in particular the Pinan katas; these were taken often often in whole chunks into the Palgwes, and when the TKD directorate in its wisdom eliminated the former and marginalized the latter, the colored belt set they came up with, the Taegeuks, turned out to consist mostly of recycled bits and pieces of the Pinan/Palgwes, a point which is made clear in meticulous detail in Simon O'Neil's forthcoming book on combat applications of TKD hyungs, emphasizing the Taegeuks especially. So exactly how did this recombination of already existing hyung elements constitute `experimentation and competition among ideas'?? The fact is, we don't do the Taegeuks at all in my Song Moo Kwan dojang, but we use front kicks, side kicks, back fists, hammer fists, palm-heel and multi-angle elbow strikes and a full repertoire of hard hand/arm/elbow techs with a heavy SD emphasis. What we do looks nothing at all like the standard curriculum that the WTF/KKW attempts to enforce (we also do the Pinan, Rohai, Empi and a variety of other Japanese kata forms, which Byung-Jik Ro taught in the original SMK); it has all the diverse techniques of its Shotokan ancestor, along with a variety of mid and high kicks, taught for balance training primarily. And that's because, fortunately, a lot of the SMK schools around here didn't kowtow to the official TKD directorate line, but preserved the technical content of the SMK even after it got swallowed up in the WTF conglomerate in Korea. quote]

You are correct, every one of those techniques was “already present in the original curricula of a number of the kwans,” but as Mr. McLain stated, the Kwans were known to have a preference towards certain techniques and their use. It was not uncommon for older style to reserve a particular technique for a particular application. After the Kwans began to merge their various applications were combined and an understanding was developed where a single technique can have a multitude of uses. The Tae Geuk poomse are so much than “recycled bits and pieces of the Pinan/Palgwes,” you clearly don’t have a full understanding of them, but why would you, you don’t spend any time studying them just criticizing them. Based on this and your numerous other posts, it is obvious that you have a bias against KKW TKD, one that stems from ignorance and arrogance.

 

[Kacey]

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