What was Wing Chun designed for?

[Juany118]

But from when and from who? There are some bloody good boxers out there. Which is expertise VT could seriously benefit from.

Exactly how they are cross training with grappling.

Not sure, WSLVT hasn't been "my thing" for years. That said I do think cross training is a good thing for a number of reasons.

 

[drop bear]

Not sure, WSLVT hasn't been "my thing" for years. That said I do think cross training is a good thing for a number of reasons.

Because no system is ever really complete.

 

[karatejj]

Wow! You really are obsessed with me, aren't you! Pretty pathetic the lengths you will go to to defend your dogmatically held beliefs! If you can't negate the message, then attack the messenger!

Evidenced by the fact that you will put out effort to hunt down my bio, but you won't put out effort to describe how all those boxing-like things from Sean's clip are found in the WSLVT Biu Gee form. You've got nothing! Obviously!

Exactly! What does your trainibg history have to do with the argument ur making or ur ability to unerstand great wing chun when u see it? This guy is such an elitist!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Because no system is ever really complete.

In another thread, I point out that one should have both the following abilities:

1. Be able to punch with both hands in fast speed.
2. Be able to extend your arm, make both arms to be 1 arm and get the maximum reach.

IMO, 1 and 2 should not be mutual exclusive. You don't have to cross train to be able to do both. All you will need is to modify your training to have both.

 

[KPM]

I think LfJ's point is simply that one needs to make sure we don't get trapped in looking at the forms and drills and say "this is how you fight" because that isn't true of any combat art.

Uh no. Why are you trying to put a positive spin on LFJ's BS? LFJ has said that it was "pure WSLVT" straight from the Biu Gee form. I was the one that suggested that it was boxing movement via MMA seen through the filter of the concepts from the Biu Gee form. So actually you should be making your comment about what I wrote. That would be a closer fit! Again, LFJ has said more than once that it was "pure WSLVT."

 

[KPM]

I would suspect because they feel it unnecessary. If I remember my lineage history right WSL came to VT/WC from Western Boxing. So it would not be illogical to believe that what is good from western boxing is already in WSLVT. /Shrug.

Ah! But that would suggest that WSL altered what he learned from Ip Man, now wouldn't it?

 

[Juany118]

Uh no. Why are you trying to put a positive spin on LFJ's BS? LFJ has said that it was "pure WSLVT" straight from the Biu Gee form. I was the one that suggested that it was boxing movement via MMA seen through the filter of the concepts from the Biu Gee form. So actually you should be making your comment about what I wrote. That would be a closer fit! Again, LFJ has said more than once that it was "pure WSLVT."

Because throughout he has been saying that the forms and drills don't teach fighting, the impart the attributes that are turned into fighting via free sparring.

 

[Juany118]

Ah! But that would suggest that WSL altered what he learned from Ip Man, now wouldn't it?

I think you know I am on record saying I believe just that

 

[KPM]

Ok. I'll just put this out and then be done with it. Then anyone following along this ridiculous tangent for this thread can decide for yourselves!

Here is the Sean's sparring clip again. Note the "duck and weave" at 2:17 and the "high cover" at about 2:24.

Here at 2:55 is the WSL Biu Jee form of the appropriate section that LFJ referenced:

Some ducking and weaving from boxing:

Boxing "high cover" here at 0:40

So you be the judge! Do you think it more likely that:

A. What we see on Sean's clip is "pure WSLVT" based on that section from the BJ form?

or

B. What we seen on Sean's clip is an adaptation of boxing via MMA to the concepts taught from that section of the WSLVT BJ form?

What do YOU guys think?

And with that, I've said all I can and I'm out! That is, unless someone feels the need to continue with his "character assassination" or tries to twist around what I've been saying all along.

 

[LFJ]

I would suspect because they feel it unnecessary. If I remember my lineage history right WSL came to VT/WC from Western Boxing. So it would not be illogical to believe that what is good from western boxing is already in WSLVT. /Shrug.

Wrong. As I just said a couple pages ago;

VT is trained in such a way that any even slight deviation in principle will be immediately obvious to the practitioner. It's self-correcting in that way.

Since, as I said, WB is the polar opposite of VT at both long and short range, it's impossible that one would be incorporating WB without realizing it.

But, more importantly, since they are directly contradictory, switching to WB strategy or tactics will render VT ineffective. They simply do not blend. If you want to do one, you have to completely abandon the other. So, there is no purposeful mixing of the two either.

Point being, no, WSL's VT was not influenced by WB. That can be clearly seen in how contradictory they are.

 

[LFJ]

---So you think the bobbing & weaving and high covers that Sean's student was doing in that clip "is nothing like boxing"????

VT doesn't bob and weave under punches at close range like boxing.

Ducking under a kick is not non-VT.

High covers are used in dozens of TCMA and other styles unrelated to WB. Just because WB is all you know, doesn't mean anything familiar you see must have come from that.

---More character assassination because you can't come up with anything else to back up what you believe? More "attack the messenger" since you can't negate the message?

I have negated the message. It just doesn't get through to someone who has no experience or knowledge to draw from and a strong ego-driven need to not acknowledge what is shown and described to him. That's not a character attack. It's just the facts of the matter.

---I just posted above that I have learned both the Ip Man Biu Gee form and the TWC Biu Gee form and the Pin Sun equivalent San Sik.

All in a few private lessons you travelled far for? I doubt it, since you are still clueless as to what BJ is about, and your longest teacher says you have a fragmented understand of WC.

 

[LFJ]

The guy bent his knees to squat down,

Because he's not an idiot. Bending knees is not non-VT.

bent forward over his lead leg

His legs were side to side, perpendicular to the opponent.
This has been illustrated to you in GIF with drawn lines.
How could still think there's a lead leg??

This is the exact opposite of what WB does at long range.

with his hands close in covering his face,

Because he's not an idiot. Covering your face is not non-VT.

did a weave to the outside and then hopped away

Because he's not an idiot. Ducking under a kick and moving away is not non-VT.

An "untrained" person would not do that! A person with knowledge of the Biu Gee form would not do that....unless he had seen it in boxing,

Or unless he's not an idiot.

Someone who has only learned VT is gonna take a spinning heel to the face? Or just bend over with legs straight and hands away from his head, and hope they don't get hit on the way down or back up?

What's a Wing Chun way to avoid that kick while trapped in the corner, then? I'd like your answer on this one.

recognized that it corresponded with concepts from the BG form and decided to use it! But to do that and not give boxing credit as the inspiration...to claim that it is "pure" WSLVT....is just plain dishonest! I don't know how else to describe it.

So, a high oblique push kick from Muay Thai corresponds to the VT dang-geuk.

Does that mean the VT kick is straight from MT, and it's dishonest if we don't credit MT?

Or are you just ignorant of Martial Arts in general?

Ducking and covering the head, just as done, are found in dozens of TCMA styles.
VT is not alone here, and it isn't copying Western Boxing.

That is simply the only thing you know about. Not because you actually box, by the way, but because you watch boxing and read books on it.

 

[LFJ]

Ok. I'll just put this out and then be done with it. Then anyone following along this ridiculous tangent for this thread can decide for yourselves!

Unfortunately, while you've paid for online learning before, you can't learn VT from videos.

The action in BJ is not just flinging your arms up like a madman and then still popping your up exposed. That would defeat the purpose.

The action bends the arms as the hands come together over the head, and elbows raise up. If you pause the action there, the head is covered with the forward and hand, while the upper arm and elbow covers the face.

From there, the hands can simply be pulled straight down and forward to man/wu guard. There is no need to fling them around in a big circle. There may be other reasons for doing that, but it's not required.

This is the problem with having never been taught the form, and just making assumptions based on 0 experience or knowledge.

Unlike SNT and CK, BJ deals with particular situations of recovery to get back to our core VT in SNT and CK.

At the beginning, it deals with having your wrists grabbed, which is a common way people try to stop you from hitting them.

Do I actually need to throw my arm up and over my head in order to break the grip with a rolling elbow? No!
Do I need to stand still or pivot on the spot? Should my other arm be chambered at my ribs? No!

Fighting is not like form.

Ducking is not done with straight legs in the form either, but we are not restricted to an arbitrary degree of bend, or after a certain degree it becomes WB.

We do what it takes to get under the kick in emergency. Of course, we don't have to plant our feet and not move like the form either. We can use lateral, evasive footwork.

Nor do we have to do anything after covering our head than come straight back to fighting guard.

Again, the problem is having never been taught the form, or how to fight with VT, and having an extremely limited and rigid understanding of the system.

 

[LFJ]

This is the high cover when recovering from ducking.

Arms bent, tightly wrapping the head.
Hands and forearms covering the head.
Upper arm and elbow covering the face on the way up.

From there, you can just bring your hands back to fighting position.

Same idea here, safely covering:

Done in an already upright position, head up, face looking forward,
your head and face will be protected inside the cover, like so:

Done, upright, looking forward, pointing the elbow forward as in the form, with a single side:

Again, it's Biu-ji, not a typical VT core tactic.
But it works well against other styles, so use is made of it.

Elbow can go as high or low as needed for cover depending on the situation.
One or both sides can be used.

Nothing at all non-VT or copying WB about it!

WB will use this sort of double cover to defend straight punches.
That doesn't work if both guys aren't wearing big gloves.

VT doesn't do that. That's why it's not a core VT tactic.
It recovers from ducking, or defends round attacks when caught in a less favorable position.

 

[Lobo66]

Hey guys,
As I said before in regards to the original topic of this thread, training has to be contextualized in order to be effective.
We are training to take part in open martial arts competitions with pancrase rules, so we must adapt to this context. That means including grappling and submission training as well as training defensive gestures against attacks that are not typically found in WC (low kicks and high roundhouse kicks, overhand rights, etc).

The high elbow cover is something that I started to integrate into my classes after working with Tim Cartmell, who is an expert in the Chinese internal martial arts as well as BJJ (3rd degree black belt under Cleber Luciano). This technique is widely used in both traditional CMA and in modern MMA. It works. I like things that work. It also does not compromise our VT structure or strategy, in my opinion. As LFJ rightly points out, it is more of a BJ tactic, "looking beyond the pointing finger" as it were. But let's not get caught up in where it comes from....that misses the whole point.

Head movement is an important part of fighting, and can be integrated into any martial art (although there are those who may disagree with me) I do teach my students the basics of slipping, ducking, weaving, lean-back, etc.

That's pretty obvious in this video :

.

 

[KPM]

The high elbow cover is something that I started to integrate into my classes after working with Tim Cartmell, who is an expert in the Chinese internal martial arts as well as BJJ (3rd degree black belt under Cleber Luciano). This technique is widely used in both traditional CMA and in modern MMA. It works. I like things that work. It also does not compromise our VT structure or strategy, in my opinion. As LFJ rightly points out, it is more of a BJ tactic, "looking beyond the pointing finger" as it were. But let's not get caught up in where it comes from....that misses the whole point.

---Fair point! But then, let's not repeatedly refer to it as "pure WSLVT" either!

Head movement is an important part of fighting, and can be integrated into any martial art (although there are those who may disagree with me) I do teach my students the basics of slipping, ducking, weaving, lean-back, etc.

----Sounds like valid cross-training to me! And again, let's not refer to this repeatedly as "pure WSLVT" either!

 

[KPM]

This is the high cover when recovering from ducking.

Arms bent, tightly wrapping the head.
Hands and forearms covering the head.
Upper arm and elbow covering the face on the way up.

From there, you can just bring your hands back to fighting position.

Same idea here, safely covering:

Done in an already upright position, head up, face looking forward,
your head and face will be protected inside the cover, like so:

Done, upright, looking forward, pointing the elbow forward as in the form, with a single side:

Again, it's Biu-ji, not a typical VT core tactic.
But it works well against other styles, so use is made of it.

Elbow can go as high or low as needed for cover depending on the situation.
One or both sides can be used.

Nothing at all non-VT or copying WB about it!

WB will use this sort of double cover to defend straight punches.
That doesn't work if both guys aren't wearing big gloves.

VT doesn't do that. That's why it's not a core VT tactic.
It recovers from ducking, or defends round attacks when caught in a less favorable position.

Anyone that thinks that picture 1 above is the same thing as picture 4 above and that picture 4 is "nothing like western boxing" is obviously delusional!

 

[LFJ]

---Fair point! But then, let's not repeatedly refer to it as "pure WSLVT" either!

It is clearly a part of WSLVT, as I've just shown, and as he also said, it's a BJ tactic.

He started using it as a standard tactic after seeing its usefulness elsewhere.

That doesn't make it non-VT.

----Sounds like valid cross-training to me! And again, let's not refer to this repeatedly as "pure WSLVT" either!

None of these ideas are precluded from pure VT.

Anyone that thinks that picture 1 above is the same thing as picture 4 above and that picture 4 is "nothing like western boxing" is obviously delusional!

It's the exact same arm position.

You are dishonestly taking an overly rigid view of forms here, while elsewhere you argue that actions in forms can be adapted to fit multiple scenarios by following the concept.

You are clearly ego-driven to deny these things as VT, because of deficiencies in your own WC learning.

 

[Knapf]

that picture 4 is "nothing like western boxing" is obviously delusional!

Agree with you on pic 4 but please try not to call anyone delusional. Be nice

 

[LFJ]

Agree with you on pic 4

I was saying the duck and cover at long range is unlike WB, for one because the stance and footwork is the exact opposite. The fighting strategy and tactics are contradictory at long and close range between WB and VT.

The cover using a single arm is familiar to WB, but exists in many TCMAs totally unrelated and predating WB.

To say it came "straight from" WB is like saying the VT dang-geuk came straight from MT.

It just shows an ignorance of Martial Arts of the world in general.