What to do during a police encounter...

Steve

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I think there have been some good ideas proposed by both sides of the debate regarding changes in law enforcement but people are so dug into their beliefs they won't listen.
For example the "send a social worker" idea. My first response from the police side of the brain says that stupid they will get killed. BUUUT the more I think about it I agree with it sort of.
Law Enforcement has become the catch-all for people when they don't know who else to call. It's 4 am and there is a dog barking and animal control is closed so call the police, It's Sunday afternoon and there is a homeless guy panhandling in front of the business area well social services is closed call the police. An autistic adult is having some issues at a movie theater call the police. Well, sometimes the police are not the best organization to be called. Our knowledge and resources are limited.
Every special interest group alive wants the police to be an expert in their cause. I deal with that at work now. Im the only former law enforcement on our team and the others get so frustrated that cops don't pay more attention to "our cause." I have to remind them that we are just one of 50 causes that demand an officer's attention. So while it may not always be "social workers" being sent if we stopped making the police the "I don't know who else to call so I called you" for non-police matters and instead have other orgs either govt or non-profits respond to non-police matters, it gives the person in need of help better-trained people for that particular issue they are dealing with and it frees law enforcement to focus on actual crimes.
Lots to think about. Animal Control is only able to respond if they have the staff, the budget, and are well run. Social Services are only effective if they are staffed, funded, and are well run. And so on. It's a tough sell, if you're in the city, county, or state budget office, have limited money and are making decisions about who to fund and who to not fund... where does the money go? If it's between the police and social services... generally, the money goes to the police. Which pinches the social services resulting in fewer resources and services they can provide, which then results in the cops being called to do things they aren't well trained to do or are outside of the scope of their job. It's a cycle that goes on all the time at every level of government... robbing peter to pay paul.

Everything costs money, and taxation is definitely big "P" political, where different folks have different opinions. But regardless of what your opinion is on taxation, it's just a fundamental truth that no matter how hard working and competent folks are, if you don't have the staff or the funding, you will at some point need to start reducing services or see a loss in quality. True for the police and also for social services, animal control, and so on.
 

Buka

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To a person whos never trained Martial Arts, the opinions he forms will be based on something other than actual experience. That can be influenced by a lot of factors.

To a person who HAS trained Martial Arts, the opinions formed will be something else entirely, but that will vary immensely because not many dojos are exactly alike. And even in ones that are pretty much alike, results will vary greatly depending on who is teaching, what they are teaching, WHO they are teaching, why they are teaching, how they are teaching etc.

I believe it important to keep in mind that law enforcement is the same way, only ten fold.

Beware of the I never trained Martial Arts but I believe this about it.

Yeah, its kinda the same way about police work. And even if you do work in Law Enforcement, all of our experiences, dangers, procedures, politics and place in society tend to be different. Sometimes way different.

Always good to keep an open mind.
 

Urban Trekker

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No. The Constitution is ABOVE ALL State laws, acts and statutes. Nuances affect those who allow public servants to talk legalese to them. Once they instill doubt in you, you're set up to put yourself under their jurisdiction, which can only happen if you consent. It's really simple. But Americans have allowed themselves to be subject to deception. This is the reason police departments and LEO are being held accountable through legal action. People are waking up and not taking the abuse.

Looks like we've got ourselves a sovereign citizen :rolleyes:
 

Urban Trekker

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I'd like to see a town or city try this for an experiment: a conscripted police force.

Basically, any able-bodied person who has a clean record and is eligible for jury duty is also eligible for conscription in the police force.

The reasoning for why I propose this: we all know what the job of a police officer entails. There are times where you may have to get physical with someone you're apprehending, which can often times result in serious injury or death. The issue? The people who do not want to do these things are probably exactly the people you want on the police force, and they're not going to apply for the job.

My understanding is that Napoleon raised a conscripted army in order to avoid it being full of the crude ruffian types who were typically attracted to military service at the time. Maybe we need to consider this as well, when looking at the police force.
 
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jks9199

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I'd like to see a town or city try this for an experiment: a conscripted police force.

Basically, any able-bodied person who has a clean record and is eligible for jury duty is also eligible for conscription in the police force.

The reasoning for why I propose this: we all know what the job of a police officer entails. There are times where you may have to get physical with someone you're apprehending, which can often times result in serious injury or death. The issue? The people who do not want to do these things are probably exactly the people you want on the police force, and they're not going to apply for the job.

My understanding is that Napoleon raised a conscripted army in order to avoid it being full of the crude ruffian types who were typically attracted to military service at the time. Maybe we need to consider this as well, when looking at the police force.
No, your concept is just wrong.

While nobody's perfect -- the goal is for police to use force professionally and responsibly, using ONLY the force necessary to accomplish lawful goals like taking someone into custody. De-escalation and avoiding the use of physical force is a great goal -- but without the ability to carry out the implied threat of going hands on, you reduce people to begging a criminal to comply. Want better cops? Pay them to be professionals, stop dumping revenue collection and all the stuff that gets thrown on the cops because they're handy, and give them the tools and training to use them confidently.
 

drop bear

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I'd like to see a town or city try this for an experiment: a conscripted police force.

Basically, any able-bodied person who has a clean record and is eligible for jury duty is also eligible for conscription in the police force.

The reasoning for why I propose this: we all know what the job of a police officer entails. There are times where you may have to get physical with someone you're apprehending, which can often times result in serious injury or death. The issue? The people who do not want to do these things are probably exactly the people you want on the police force, and they're not going to apply for the job.

My understanding is that Napoleon raised a conscripted army in order to avoid it being full of the crude ruffian types who were typically attracted to military service at the time. Maybe we need to consider this as well, when looking at the police force.

It doesn't matter who you start with if it is the environment creates monsters.
 

drop bear

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No, your concept is just wrong.

While nobody's perfect -- the goal is for police to use force professionally and responsibly, using ONLY the force necessary to accomplish lawful goals like taking someone into custody. De-escalation and avoiding the use of physical force is a great goal -- but without the ability to carry out the implied threat of going hands on, you reduce people to begging a criminal to comply. Want better cops? Pay them to be professionals, stop dumping revenue collection and all the stuff that gets thrown on the cops because they're handy, and give them the tools and training to use them confidently.

No it really isn't.

If that was the goal. Then you would see ten cops packed in to a patrol car. That way they could effectively and safely subdue a person using minimum force.

Along with the tools, training and support needed to prepare a person for that role.

You would see a focus on mental health of officers to stop break downs. You would see increased work health and saftey. Pulling tired or injured officers off shift.

You might even give them pants with inbuilt knee pads so they are not beating themselves up every time they have to hand cuff some one.

If the sum total of effort that goes in to police using force professionally is a two week self defence course.

That is literally the last goal of police administration.
 

Urban Trekker

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No, your concept is just wrong.

While nobody's perfect -- the goal is for police to use force professionally and responsibly, using ONLY the force necessary to accomplish lawful goals like taking someone into custody.

Which is also the goal of my hypothetical scenario.

De-escalation and avoiding the use of physical force is a great goal -- but without the ability to carry out the implied threat of going hands on, you reduce people to begging a criminal to comply.

I didn't mean to imply that this hypothetical conscripted police force would consist of officers that would flat out refuse to get physical if they can't gain compliance at lower levels. What I did mean to imply is that they'd simply be less eager to do it.

Also, consider this other possibility: greater mutual respect between the police and the citizens.

The conscripted officers know that their time is eventually going to be up, and they're going to be back out there among the citizens that they deal with on a daily basis. They also know that when this happens, some of the citizens that they've dealt with will be conscripted officers themselves. The Golden Rule would then become very important in this scenario.
 

dvcochran

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No it really isn't.

If that was the goal. Then you would see ten cops packed in to a patrol car. That way they could effectively and safely subdue a person using minimum force.

Along with the tools, training and support needed to prepare a person for that role.

You would see a focus on mental health of officers to stop break downs. You would see increased work health and saftey. Pulling tired or injured officers off shift.

You might even give them pants with inbuilt knee pads so they are not beating themselves up every time they have to hand cuff some one.

If the sum total of effort that goes in to police using force professionally is a two week self defence course.

That is literally the last goal of police administration.
Your points are valid but far, far from what @Urban Trekker mentioned.
 

Dirty Dog

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Folks, this thread is starting to turn political. Please don't make us lock it.
 

Buka

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Folks, this thread is starting to turn political. Please don't make us lock it.
This thread has the right to remain silent. Anything it says can and will likely piss someone off.

I can see the lock coming now. :)
 

CB Jones

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My understanding is that Napoleon raised a conscripted army in order to avoid it being full of the crude ruffian types who were typically attracted to military service at the time.

You sure he didn't just need a method to replenish troops during the Napoleonic wars? Of the 2.5 million conscripts...over 1 million never returned to France (either killed or deserted)
 
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