What the hell is Enlightenment!?

[TieXiongJi]

What do you mean by "model of existence"?

Scientifically provable. Succinctly, Existence starts with X (I think it is the perfect balance between 0 and 1), then the Big Bang, then Stars, then Planets, then Life, then Life examines itself and the world, then we are here.

 

[Steve]

That is in one philosophy. I believe that full enlightenment (enlightenment in all areas of life) may be extraordinarily rare, if not unprecedented. However, a significant number (though a distinct minority) of people do find enlightenment in some area of their lives. This becomes an area where things just "work". They put forth effort in exactly the ways it is needed, without having to put a lot of effort into knowing what those areas are. It's not accidental, they just "get" that area of life so profoundly that the next step seems clear. They live on principles in that area of life, and cannot be disturbed there, even when things go badly, because even then they see what is next. If the person takes that enlightenment and uses it to see other areas of life, their enlightenment expands.

That's a poor description of my view, and I'm not sure it's possible to describe accurately.

Lol. That sounds less like enlightenment and more like competence to me.

 

[TieXiongJi]

Dump this whole concept. Throw it away. You are going down a dead end with this.

You clearly have an idea of Enlightenment. Could you explain your concept instead of telling me to burn everything and start over?
I am trying to incorporate your ideas and move forward, but we still haven't agreed on a basic answer to the question.

 

[TieXiongJi]

Some things in life need to happen organically, and cannot be forced. If you force it, then it takes longer. Forcing it disrupts the natural process.

I am reminded of the book Zen and the art of Archery, wherein a German fellow practiced Kyudo in Japan. He was struggling with the natural and relaxed method he needed to develop to properly release the arrow.

His sensei, in an attempt to figure out how to better convey the instructions to his student, read some psychology books of the like that this German fellow was a student of. After doing so, he told his student that he is of the opinion that he (the student) may not be able to grasp the true kyudo technique, now that he (the sensei) has a better understanding of how the student's mind works.

Gotta be honest with you, I see a parallel here.

Everything happens organically.
I am seeking truth. The German fellow is seeking a skill. His sensei has an idea of what Kyuudo means, but failed to transfer that knowledge to the student. Obviously they are talking past each other because they couldn't find the point where they agree and move forward from there, other than "This is a Bow. This is an Arrow. Knock the arrow, pull the bow, relax, focus, relax, aim, relax, release."

 

[Steve]

Scientifically provable. Succinctly, Existence starts with X (I think it is the perfect balance between 0 and 1), then the Big Bang, then Stars, then Planets, then Life, then Life examines itself and the world, then we are here.

I have three things to say. A, discussions about abstract concepts are unconstructive when they remain abstract. And 2, this presupposes that we have a shared understanding of the term.

 

[Flying Crane]

You clearly have an idea of Enlightenment. Could you explain your concept instead of telling me to burn everything and start over?
I am trying to incorporate your ideas and move forward, but we still haven't agreed on a basic answer to the question.

I don't know how to tell you much more than I already have in this thread.

I believe you are looking for concrete answers to something that has no concrete answers. It's a little bit like if you ask me, what do you feel like doing today? And expecting my answer to be somewhere between one and ten. It just does not work that way.

I think the previous studies you have mentioned may have conditioned you to view the world in away that is not compatible with any understanding of enlightenment. You expect the world to operate in ways that are fully measureable and predictable. While that can be true for some things, for others it is not.

You are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.

 

[TieXiongJi]

I have three things to say. A, discussions about abstract concepts are unconstructive when they remain abstract. And 2, this presupposes that we have a shared understanding of the term.

1) Agree. I am trying to nail people down to a primary idea.
2) Add to or Correct the idea so we can share understanding.
3) Well, that is just your opinion, man.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a reason binary logic is taught first. It's the simplest and most accessible.

It's also the furthest from reality in everyday existence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Scientifically provable. Succinctly, Existence starts with X (I think it is the perfect balance between 0 and 1), then the Big Bang, then Stars, then Planets, then Life, then Life examines itself and the world, then we are here.

That feels like a lot of pieces tossed together. What does "scientifically provable" have to do with "Life examines itself"? And how does any of that explain what a "model of existence" is?

 

[Steve]

1) Agree. I am trying to nail people down to a primary idea.
2) Add to or Correct the idea so we can share understanding.
3) Well, that is just your opinion, man.

1. You first.
2. I have. I (and others) aren't. Responsible if you don't understand or recognize that you are getting exactly what you're asking for.
And 3.

 

[Jenna]

Well, the title of the thread is "What is Enlightenment?"
After years of studying the world around me, I came to the conclusion:
Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end.

What is your answer to the question?

I would tentatively agree with you. At least in part. You have studied the world around you for years and concluded that everything is 1?

I would ask of you, it being true what you said, that everything is 1, then who or what are you within that?

 

[TieXiongJi]

I don't know how to tell you much more than I already have in this thread.

I believe you are looking for concrete answers to something that has no concrete answers. It's a little bit like if you ask me, what do you feel like doing today? And expecting my answer to be somewhere between one and ten. It just does not work that way.

I think the previous studies you have mentioned may have conditioned you to view the world in away that is not compatible with any understanding of enlightenment. You expect the world to operate in ways that are fully measureable and predictable. While that can be true for some things, for others it is not.

You are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.

I agree with the first part. All of my studies have led me to a point where I understand many things and ideas. I have had multiple people tell me what Enlightenment means to them, but they never agree.
The world does work in fully measurable ways as long as you have the ability to measure. The current state will change; that is always true. Prediction is the idea of the next state which we constantly use every moment.
It is quite simple to give you a vast list of things that are measurable and predictable. Could you possibly tell me what thing is not measurable or predictable?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lol. That sounds less like enlightenment and more like competence to me.

It's beyond that. For instance, when someone is enlightened in relationships, they make each next decision because it is the right one. They know it is the right one, and they trust in that knowledge. They know even when the outcome shouldn't actually be knowable. They can't always define why they know, or even what it is they know. But they do know. When something in that area of life isn't working, they aren't frustrated by it, because even then they know the right next step. Even if that step is a painful one, they take it without fear and without hesitation because it is simply the right next step. They enjoy their relationships (even those with folks who aren't good at relationships and who are being difficult). They are never unsure of themselves in that area. I'm unsure whether enlightenment can be lost, or if those who seem to have had it and lost it were close, but never quite made it.

See how poorly this comes into words? It sounds clinical and emotionless at times, but it's not.

Here's the comparison to competence. If someone is highly competent at something, they will make mistakes, and will be able to fix them. They sometimes get frustrated by what isn't working. They understand the topic of their expertise. They do "get it", but mostly on an intellectual level.

You might find some fluidity in my attempts to explain the idea that's in my mind as I try to put it into words that both explain what I mean and make sense to you. That likely either means I'm more enlightened, or that I have a very weak idea of what it is. I tend to think it's the latter.

 

[TieXiongJi]

1. You first.
2. I have. I (and others) aren't. Responsible if you don't understand or recognize that you are getting exactly what you're asking for.
And 3.

1) Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end. -This true statement allows me to understand how System A works, then how System B works with System A and so on.
2) I think you are right. Maybe nobody knows...
3) Totally, brother.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Could you possibly tell me what thing is not measurable or predictable?

Love.
Hate.
Joy.

 

[TieXiongJi]

I would tentatively agree with you. At least in part. You have studied the world around you for years and concluded that everything is 1?

I would ask of you, it being true what you said, that everything is 1, then who or what are you within that?

I understand that I am a human, living within the American society, which is part of the Human society, which only exists because of everything else that came before.

 

[Steve]

It's beyond that. For instance, when someone is enlightened in relationships, they make each next decision because it is the right one. They know it is the right one, and they trust in that knowledge. They know even when the outcome shouldn't actually be knowable. They can't always define why they know, or even what it is they know. But they do know. When something in that area of life isn't working, they aren't frustrated by it, because even then they know the right next step. Even if that step is a painful one, they take it without fear and without hesitation because it is simply the right next step. They enjoy their relationships (even those with folks who aren't good at relationships and who are being difficult). They are never unsure of themselves in that area. I'm unsure whether enlightenment can be lost, or if those who seem to have had it and lost it were close, but never quite made it.

See how poorly this comes into words? It sounds clinical and emotionless at times, but it's not.

Here's the comparison to competence. If someone is highly competent at something, they will make mistakes, and will be able to fix them. They sometimes get frustrated by what isn't working. They understand the topic of their expertise. They do "get it", but mostly on an intellectual level.

You might find some fluidity in my attempts to explain the idea that's in my mind as I try to put it into words that both explain what I mean and make sense to you. That likely either means I'm more enlightened, or that I have a very weak idea of what it is. I tend to think it's the latter.

When you talk about relationships, don't know. I don't think enlightenment is the right term. I mean, reading your description above sounds like familiarity, trust and commitment. But all of these are contingent upon reciprocal trust and commitment.

You're describing a feeling of enlightenment, but that isn't the same. It's like the feeling of safety vs actually being safe.


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[Gerry Seymour]

Love.
Hate.
Joy.

@TieXiongJi - care to fill in what it is you disagree with about that list?

 

[TieXiongJi]

Love.
Hate.
Joy.

Emotions are measurable by the subject's experience.
We all know that emotions are the result of brain chemicals and the dynamic network of your brain. Developing a brain scan to determine relative levels of love for your partner vs your parents vs your kids vs your dog is very possible. Just have to find a way to make it relative to numbers.
Same could be done for Hate, Joy, Beauty, Disgust...
Got another?

 

[Flying Crane]

1) Agree. I am trying to nail people down to a primary idea.

See? You are trying to force something that may not be forceable. That is your first mistake.

You want to measure enlightenment. It is not measureable.
You want enlightenment to conform to some quick and easy talking points. It doesn't.

You mentioned climate change and Trump in an earlier post. Ok, this is not a forum where debating politics is allowed so I won't do that. However, I will simply ask you, have you noticed how politicians try to sway public opinion with highly charged talking points? What is wrong with that, is that the issues are always far too complex to reduce them to easy talking points. Trying to do so ignores that complexity and results in a very seriously misleading message. It becomes a blatant lie.

I am not questioning your intentions, but simply point out that you may be kind of doing the same thing. You want to nail something down here, but the issue is too nuanced and complex to be nailed down. This isn't something that can be summed up with easy talking points.

The fact that you are trying to do so tells me that your very approach and the assumptions you make on how to examine this, are simply wrong.

This has to do with a state of mind interacting with ones perceived and actual reality of life, flavored by life experiences, education, desires, lack of desires, etc. there is no mathematical equation that can describe this. But I feel like that is what you are looking for.