What should the criteria be for an 18 year old 4th Dan?

Gorilla

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This is likely to be a controversial topic!

I know the minimum requirements for 4th Dan...a few 18 year olds do qualify based on when they got their 3rd Poom!

Do you think any 18 year old qualifies?

What should an 18 year old 4th Dan look like from a qualification and skill perspective?

if you disagree with 18 year old 4th dans please speak up!

Should be fun! :rpo:
 

IcemanSK

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I don't know that they "changed the requirement to 5th Dan from Poom," but that's not germane to your main question.

I have no problem with 4th Dan from Poom rank at 18 years old. As far as what their test should be like, it should be the same as any adult's 4th Dan test. The material needs to be covered and the same expectations made for them as any other 4th Dan candidate. In Korea, that 4th Dan Kukkiwon & passing the Instructor's Training Course allows them to open a dojang. The Course won't be modified for their age, the test shouldn't be either. This 18 year old 4th Dan candidate is very rare (even in Korea) & is exceptional in skill & dedication to the Art.
 

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Just copy and paste the entire "youth black belt" thread to here. The arguments will be the same. In KKW TKD, an 18YO 4th Dan is entirely possible. I our school, completely impossible.
What should they look like? They should look like whatever that particular org thinks they should look like.
 

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Gorilla

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Just copy and paste the entire "youth black belt" thread to here. The arguments will be the same. In KKW TKD, an 18YO 4th Dan is entirely possible. I our school, completely impossible.
What should they look like? They should look like whatever that particular org thinks they should look like.


just trying in got get another discussion going! How long do you think someone should train before 4th Dan.... Is age the only requirement....what if someone is exceptional!

i agree that it is organizational centric!
 

Archtkd

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This is likely to be a controversial topic!

I know the minimum requirements for 4th Dan...a few 18 year olds do qualify based on when they got their 3rd Poom!

Do you think any 18 year old qualifies?

What should an 18 year old 4th Dan look like from a qualification and skill perspective?

if you disagree with 18 year old 4th dans please speak up!

Should be fun! :rpo:

The future of taekwondo, particularly Kukkiwon style taekwondo lies in our youth, which ultimately means we are going to have younger 4th dans (potential master instructors) and that may not be a bad thing. The latest Kukkiwon stats below indicate the the trend. They show that the total number of Kukkiwon certified blackbelts under 15 (poom) exceeds those 15 and up (dan) by nearly 30,000. Given worldwide taekwondo trends, there’s little likelihood of adults overtaking youth in taekwondo dojang enrollment and participation.


That said, the 18-year old 4th dan remains a rarity and I don’t think there should be a problem if a few taekwondoin train from a very early age and make it to that level by virtue of experience and expertise.


POOM COUNT


1 POOM 134,707
2 POOM 20,498
3 POOM 2,655
4 POOM 306
158,166


DAN


1 DAN 83,030
2 DAN 26,376
3 DAN 11,473
4 DAN 4,536
5 DAN 1,772
6 DAN 662
7 DAN 383
8 DAN 70
9 DAN 71
10 DAN 1
128,374


TOTAL 286,540
 
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Gorilla

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Very interesting numbers!!! I think it bodes well for the future of TKD!

Some may have a very different outlook!
 

Buka

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The criteria for an eighteen year old should be whatever his instructor says it is. If the eighteen year old's instructor is an integral part of an organization, the organization should probably make the rules/requirements.
 

IcemanSK

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The future of taekwondo, particularly Kukkiwon style taekwondo lies in our youth, which ultimately means we are going to have younger 4th dans (potential master instructors) and that may not be a bad thing. The latest Kukkiwon stats below indicate the the trend. They show that the total number of Kukkiwon certified blackbelts under 15 (poom) exceeds those 15 and up (dan) by nearly 30,000. Given worldwide taekwondo trends, there’s little likelihood of adults overtaking youth in taekwondo dojang enrollment and participation.


That said, the 18-year old 4th dan remains a rarity and I don’t think there should be a problem if a few taekwondoin train from a very early age and make it to that level by virtue of experience and expertise.


POOM COUNT


1 POOM 134,707
2 POOM 20,498
3 POOM 2,655
4 POOM 306
158,166


DAN


1 DAN 83,030
2 DAN 26,376
3 DAN 11,473
4 DAN 4,536
5 DAN 1,772
6 DAN 662
7 DAN 383
8 DAN 70
9 DAN 71
10 DAN 1
128,374


TOTAL 286,540

These must just be the US numbers. The 10th Dan listed is my late Grandmaster Edward Sell. Seeing that makes me both proud and sad at the same time.

The numbers of both 4th Dan & 4th Poom tell quite a story of how infrequently that rank is given in Kukki-TKD. I've met two men who were given 4th Poom before the age of 18. They are now 6th Dan in the 30's. They grew up in the dojang run by their father. They have college degrees, and together with their father, run 7 dojangs in the Los Angeles area. They would exceed anyone's criteria for excellence in Taekwondo.
 

Earl Weiss

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These must just be the US numbers. The 10th Dan listed is my late Grandmaster Edward Sell. Seeing that makes me both proud and sad at the same time.

The numbers of both 4th Dan & 4th Poom tell quite a story of how infrequently that rank is given in Kukki-TKD. I've met two men who were given 4th Poom before the age of 18. They are now 6th Dan in the 30's. They grew up in the dojang run by their father. They have college degrees, and together with their father, run 7 dojangs in the Los Angeles area. They would exceed anyone's criteria for excellence in Taekwondo.


IS the time in grade much longer for 4-5-6, since it took 12 plus years to go 2 more dans?
 
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Gorilla

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These must just be the US numbers. The 10th Dan listed is my late Grandmaster Edward Sell. Seeing that makes me both proud and sad at the same time.

The numbers of both 4th Dan & 4th Poom tell quite a story of how infrequently that rank is given in Kukki-TKD. I've met two men who were given 4th Poom before the age of 18. They are now 6th Dan in the 30's. They grew up in the dojang run by their father. They have college degrees, and together with their father, run 7 dojangs in the Los Angeles area. They would exceed anyone's criteria for excellence in Taekwondo.

Who are the 30 year olds of which you speak....if you feel comfortable revealing their names? It is a great success story and debunks the whole 18 is to young theory being applied without consideration for the exceptional youth Martial Artist!
 

Balrog

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What should the criteria be for an 18 year old 4th Dan?

The same as the criteria for a 28 year old 4th Dan.
 
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Gorilla

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Not really talking about test requirements! Should have been more clear!

Technical Mastery eshould be there of course!

What would you be looking for that would make you say.... That kid is a good 4th Dan inspite of his youth!
 

Master Dan

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Looks are all in the eye of the beholder are they not?

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Daniel Sullivan

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Not really talking about test requirements! Should have been more clear!

Technical Mastery eshould be there of course!

What would you be looking for that would make you say.... That kid is a good 4th Dan inspite of his youth!
No matter how the discussion goes, there is no making everyone happy. Thirteen year olds have shown the technical mastery, but because they can't beat up an adult, they shouldn't be graded for first dan.

And eighteen year old who based on TIG would have been training since he/she was probably ten or younger, could probably put a hurting on most adult yudanja, but because they don't have the "understanding and maturity," they shouldn't be graded for fourth dan.

Does that sound about right?

What I would be looking for is this: Fourth dan is a teaching grade. So I would be looking for not only technical proficiency and maturity, but for depth of knowledge beyond just the ability to perform the technical requirements and ability to transmit that knowledge and proficiency to others and for them to be able to apply that maturity in guiding others.
 

Manny

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Without to start a flame I think a 18 years old boy or girl simply does not have the critherya to be a 4th dan! That's why our beloved TKD is plagued with so many bad things, we rush our people trough the grades, for me no any single one below 20 years old must be second or third dan black belt, for thta sake are the poom grades.

I think grades must be awarded not only because of skill but comon sense, respect, etc,etc, and all these things are not in a 18 years old boy or girl.

Manny
 
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