What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

[drop bear]

Show of hands. How many people have actually had this happen?

On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline. And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.

I don't know this person. I don't know what rules they'll want to fight under - rules which I may be ill prepared for and would make me look foolish. I don't know if he wants a friendly bout or if he's going to keep going even if he TKO's me. This isn't a sanctioned bout with a referee. It's a random dude walking in off the street with what might as well be pajamas he bought off of Amazon. At the very least, he's interrupting my class. I have nothing to gain by fighting him. He's put me in a situation where the best outcome for me is that everything stays the same.

I would want my students to learn that you avoid fighting at all costs. And just because he wanted to fight me, doesn't mean I have to fight him.

Greg Saunders

 

[_Simon_]

i didnt kill him, just broke his sticks, of course my age has relevance, if he wasnt much the dame age as me, then the whole thibg wouldnt have happen, then or now

Ah right.. that's interesting... so being of a certain age justifies certain behaviours... I'm legit just trying to understand not judge. All good we can drop it if you'd like

 

[_Simon_]

Greg Saunders

The dude with red gloves come in to challenge? Really impressed by the fellow with black gloves, he only ramped it up when the other guy went a bit hard, and didn't beat him to a pulp, but showed his skill for sure.

 

[drop bear]

The dude with red gloves come in to challenge? Really impressed by the fellow with black gloves, he only ramped it up when the other guy went a bit hard, and didn't beat him to a pulp, but showed his skill for sure.

Yeah. He is a super nice guy.

We knew the other dude wasn't very good.

 

[jobo]

Ah right.. that's interesting... so being of a certain age justifies certain behaviours... I'm legit just trying to understand not judge. All good we can drop it if you'd like

im fine with it, what happened 48 year ago justifies certain behaviours, if id have run into him when i was 20, he would have got a lot lot worse, so he is lucky to a large extent,

he made a living beating up little kids then he got to exsperiance what it feels like to be powerless, i think thats fair and just, clearly you dont, so we differ in philosophy

 

[Gerry Seymour]

why ever not, ? you could get one half holding feet whilst the other half do push ups, thats training for both halfs
or put your feet agaibst the wall, you have walls i take it, that a bit harder, as you have got to push backwards as well to keep your feet on the wall, better work up to that one, go with hands
you dont want a,solution, do you ?

Holding each other's feet I'd need to try out. Might work if everyone does it right (some risk if the supporter does a poor job). Walls are usually at a premium. Stuff stored along them, heavy bags, and such. Hard to find enough wall space for more than a small class to work together.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You just start your MA class in front of your 50 students. A guy with a Karate uniform and a black belt on his waist who walks into your class, bows to you, and says, "May I spar with you?"

You were in your 30, top shape in your life. Will you turn down someone's challenge in front of your 50 students?

That's sparring. And it would depend what the attitude is. Right then? No. I'm teaching class. If he wants to wait around (or perhaps join the class), I'll probably have a chance later (assuming I don't have a busy class plan, like testing). But again, that's sparring. I don't need to destroy the guy. I don't even need to win - my students aren't under any illusion that I'm Superman.

The praying mantis master Brendan Lai told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to throw just 1 punch. If his opponent could block it, his opponent won, Otherwise, he won.

My SC senior brother David C. K. Lin told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to attack him 3 times. if in any 1 of those 3 attacks, the challenger could remain standing on his feet for more than 3 seconds, the challenger won, otherwise he won.

In the above 2 examples, both tested their offense skill.

You can also test your defense skill (this is even more civilized in my opinion). You may tell the challenger that he can throw 20 punches toward you. If among those 20 punches, any punch that can land on your body, he wins, otherwise you win.

You challenge me. I let you attack me and I only play defense. You just can't find any more civilized challenge fight than this.

There are many civilized way to accept a challenge fight. IMO, the challenge fight is an excellent way to test your MA skill.

Those aren't really challenge fights, though are they? They're friendly tests of skill.d

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Show of hands. How many people have actually had this happen?

On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline. And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.

I don't know this person. I don't know what rules they'll want to fight under - rules which I may be ill prepared for and would make me look foolish. I don't know if he wants a friendly bout or if he's going to keep going even if he TKO's me. This isn't a sanctioned bout with a referee. It's a random dude walking in off the street with what might as well be pajamas he bought off of Amazon. At the very least, he's interrupting my class. I have nothing to gain by fighting him. He's put me in a situation where the best outcome for me is that everything stays the same.

I would want my students to learn that you avoid fighting at all costs. And just because he wanted to fight me, doesn't mean I have to fight him.

I only know one guy who even claims this happened (and I tend to believe him). It was in the late '70's, I think.

 

[jobo]

Holding each other's feet I'd need to try out. Might work if everyone does it right (some risk if the supporter does a poor job). Walls are usually at a premium. Stuff stored along them, heavy bags, and such. Hard to find enough wall space for more than a small class to work together.

we are branching off a bit, but back in my kung fu days, we did an enourmass amount of body weight exercises where the body weight was someone elses, which needs you to select partners a bit, to prevent dropping, but hell that teaches them breakfalls.

i, at about 160 lb, used to get the 300lb guy, as no one else could lift him, i tell you hopping round the gym with him on my back, was a good work out

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It can be worse than that.

Bruce Frantzis met my teacher in the park in Taiwan. Bruce asked my teacher, "What is the application of the Taiji needle at the bottom of the sea?" When my teacher tried to explain him the application, Bruce went behind my teacher's back and gave my teacher a bear hug. Bruce then said, "What can you do now?"

If Bruce could take my teacher down, my teacher's "Chinese wrestling king" reputation would be totally destroyed.

I don't mind the face to face challenge (I can turn down if I want to). But I have serious problem with this kind of surprised attack.

I don't understand the need for the instructor to seem invulnerable. I just don't get it.

 

[jobo]

Holding each other's feet I'd need to try out. Might work if everyone does it right (some risk if the supporter does a poor job). Walls are usually at a premium. Stuff stored along them, heavy bags, and such. Hard to find enough wall space for more than a small class to work together.

the real problem you have, isnt finding exercises that produces posertive results in a short time, it getting a cross section of the public to put in enough effort to count as HIT or HIIT,


there still a gain for them, even if they are only at 60% effort , as what they can do at 60% increases week on week( at least for a while), just nowhere near as fast as it might otherwise.

and clearly you need to start them off wiith something achievable and turn it up over a few weeks

 

[skribs]

Your gain is to have a chance to test your MA skill.

IMO, "avoid fighting" is different from "accumulate fighting experience during young age".

Back in 1980, this guy in black (from US) who went to Taiwan and challenged anybody in the public. The guy in the white used finger jab and hit on the challenger's throat and ended the fight.

One time I went back to Taiwan from US. My friend suggested me to challenge the guy in white. I went to his MA school. He knew I was a challenger. Since he was very polite to me. I didn't challenge him that day.

Back in the 80, Bruce Frantzis also went to Taiwan and public challenged everybody. He told Taiwan TV station that nobody in Taiwan had courage to accept his challenge. One day he challenged my teacher in the park (Bruce was in his 30 and my teacher was in his 70).

Challenge fight was very popular back in those day. Today, it seems to me that nobody challenge anybody any more.

So gain that experience in sanctioned bouts. The benefits are:

• Rules for player safety
• Referees for player safety
• Medical personnel on-site for player safety

Are you noticing a theme here?

Plus, I wouldn't exactly call myself young anymore. Maybe by @Dirty Dog 's standards. I'm not old yet, but I'm not young.

 

[jobo]

So gain that experience in sanctioned bouts. The benefits are:

• Rules for player safety
• Referees for player safety
• Medical personnel on-site for player safety

Are you noticing a theme here?

Plus, I wouldn't exactly call myself young anymore. Maybe by @Dirty Dog 's standards. I'm not old yet, but I'm not young.

well there are different cultures in different places and different times and times of your life

when i was young if someone challenged you to a fight, then, given any equality in size, you had a fight, it was just that simple

that doesnt seem to be the case so muchthese days, which may be a good thing that casual violence isnt so casual .

but there is it seems a lot more passivly agresive behavior, which doesnt happen so much if your likely to be punched on the nose, so its swings and round abouts

i had some bigish guy walk 50 yards to give me a peice of his mind at the top of his voice,, when o ffered to fight him he left, dont get these people at all

 

[Dirty Dog]

Plus, I wouldn't exactly call myself young anymore. Maybe by @Dirty Dog 's standards. I'm not old yet, but I'm not young.

Whippersnapper. GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't understand the need for the instructor to seem invulnerable. I just don't get it.

When the 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang was in his 70, one day he was sitting in a chair and watched his students training in the park. A Zimen system guy bowed to Wei first. the Zimen guy then stepped in, and poked his fingers tips on Wei's chest while Wei was still sitting in his chair. The Zimen guy then bowed and left without saying a word. Next day that Zimen guy announced that he was faster than the 8 step praying mantis master. He attacked Wei's chest, Wei could not even block it.

When I cross trained the Zimen system, my Zimen brothers were proudly to tell me this. In Taiwan, if your name belong to the top 10 CMA masters list, every body will want to defeat you.

8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

When the 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang was in his 70, one day he was sitting in a chair and watched his students training in the park. A Zimen system guy bowed to Wei first. the Zimen guy then stepped in, and poked his fingers tips on Wei's chest while Wei was still sitting in his chair. The Zimen guy then bowed and left without saying a word. Next day that Zimen guy announced that he was faster than the 8 step praying mantis master. He attacked Wei's chest, Wei could not even block it.

When I cross trained the Zimen system, my Zimen brothers were proudly to tell me this. In Taiwan, if your name belong to the top 10 CMA masters list, every body will want to defeat you.

8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang.

If I heard someone bragging about that story, I would honestly laugh and leave. It just shows they want recognition without skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the real problem you have, isnt finding exercises that produces posertive results in a short time, it getting a cross section of the public to put in enough effort to count as HIT or HIIT,


there still a gain for them, even if they are only at 60% effort , as what they can do at 60% increases week on week( at least for a while), just nowhere near as fast as it might otherwise.

and clearly you need to start them off wiith something achievable and turn it up over a few weeks

That part is their job. If the system can provide a routine that works for everyone in the class (so it can be done together), that's sufficient. As you suggest, most folks aren't going to go near 100%, but then most don't with any other part of their training, either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When the 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang was in his 70, one day he was sitting in a chair and watched his students training in the park. A Zimen system guy bowed to Wei first. the Zimen guy then stepped in, and poked his fingers tips on Wei's chest while Wei was still sitting in his chair. The Zimen guy then bowed and left without saying a word. Next day that Zimen guy announced that he was faster than the 8 step praying mantis master. He attacked Wei's chest, Wei could not even block it.

When I cross trained the Zimen system, my Zimen brothers were proudly to tell me this. In Taiwan, if your name belong to the top 10 CMA masters list, every body will want to defeat you.

8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang.

Yeah, and if students are swayed by the ability to poke a 70-year-old guy in the chest without warning, there's not much real thought going on.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I heard someone bragging about that story, I would honestly laugh and leave. It just shows they want recognition without skill.

This is a very famous video clip. When the Chen Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang visited Taiwan from China, a young guy challenged him in push hand. After the young guy push on Chen's chest, the young guy announced that he had defeated the Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang.

May be the MA culture in China and Taiwan is different from the MA culture in US.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is a very famous video clip. When the Chen Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang visited Taiwan from China, a young guy challenged him in push hand. After the young guy push on Chen's chest, the young guy announced that he had defeated the Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang.

May be the MA culture in China and Taiwan is different from the MA culture in US.

From what you are describing, definitely. There's much less of a need to prove yourself in random challenges, and it's acknowledged that no one is invincible. Basically no one is going to win everything all the time, if I faced someone 100 times and won 99 of them- technically they beat me. But no one would think they were the more skilled of us.