What is your view?

[Don Rearic]

I clicked onto this Forum the other day and was wondering why there was not a fair amount of activity. I figured I would start a thread and see what people have to say. Perhaps sparking some interesting conversation.

I am doing this in the spirit of this post, found in another thread in this Forum:

"Very simply, how to use a knife with martial principals. From Balisong to Marine Corp."

~Kaith Rustaz

We all know that we really don't want to tangle in the alley with someone who has a piece of sharp steel in their hand and evil on their mind, however...

What are your views on this? I think it is safe to say that regardless of skill in any empty hand Art, it's not really a situation you want to be in. Knives and Guns tend to trump the best laid battle plans when the battle plan does not include a weapon.

So, do you study or carry edged weapons for modern Self-defense? What is the deal? [Conversation!]

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I usually carry a Geek-Blade. (tactical folder, with the case made from old motherboards)

Mostly for utility...in an actual knife fight at this point in my training, I'd be at a disadvantage.

Study yes, hope to never have to need training.

 

[Don Rearic]

Yeah, Utility is a must. Some people want us to tear apart meat with our hands now. It's good to see people using knives in that role as well. Keeps up an extra-legal, legitimate air about them. They really are a must to me. I hate tearing things apart and whatnot. We have brains, we're supposed to use tools.

And the computer board thingy-slabs on a knife, hey, they're good "Geek-O-Flage," don't sweat that. If anything it makes it even more legitimate in the eyes of people that think we should be tearing things apart with our hands now. Going back to Neanderthal Times...

And yeah, it's not something you want to be involved in really, re: knife fight/altercation with a knife.

Do you have any focus on that aspect though?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So far, my knife trainings been some simple disarms. It gets more complicated as things go, as I'm still working on that elusive yellow belt.

We've done some sparing with the idea of knife vs knife and knife vs empty hand, among other things.

 

[arnisador]

I was going to post here the other night asking for advice on choosing a folder (I was interrupted). I occasionally carry one for self-defense as I feel confident in its use, but I don't know much about choosing a folder. The knife magazines have more information than I can use and I honestly don't see the differences in many cases.

I have two folders now, plus a couple of balisongs. I usually carry my small folder that I can open in one smooth motion with one-hand, but I also have a larger and sturdier tanto-style folder (but not as big as a true tanto of course) that I would prefer save for the fact that I need two one-handed motions or one two-handed motion to open it. I generally carry a knife when walking alone in the woods or possibly walking alone at night (if this cannot be avoided), so I carry it in my right front pants or jacket pocket and want something I can grab and smoothly open. I anticipate that the intimidation factor would suffice and I would not need to use it--that would ordinarily be my plan, not to hide it behind my leg and stab an unarmed opponent. I'm not ready to consider wearing a special sheath for the knife. Both folders I have open via a protusion on the blade that is worked by the thumb; the smaller one has a curved, grooved protusion and the larger one has a flat one. I have seen folders with a circular hole that the thumb rests in to open the blade but again don't know much about the trade-offs here.

In summary I'd like a bigger and sturdier folding blade but the big one is so big I can't open it completely in a single motion. Any suggestions?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
What are your views on this? I think it is safe to say that regardless of skill in any empty hand Art, it's not really a situation you want to be in. Knives and Guns tend to trump the best laid battle plans when the battle plan does not include a weapon.

Let me put in a rather long excerpt from "The Fairbairn Manual of Knife Fighting" at http://www.selbstverteidigung.org/images/cobra.html as part of this discussion. The material in red was added by the editor of the text, William L. Cassidy. To find this material search for the term "unarmed" in the page; the internal links are broken. Summarizing, the author says categorically: IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE".

From The Fairbairn Manual of Knife Fighting:

DIS-ARMING A KNIFE FIGHTING OPPONENT??

We are frequently being told of Judo Experts who claim that they can dis-arm a man attacking them with a knife without the aid of any weapon - in other words - with their bare hands. Also we have a copy of a Military Training Bulletin, in which the author lays down how the recruit should be instructed to do the same thing.

It is apparent that neither the Judo Expert nor the writer of the Bulletin have ever seen an expert knife fighter in action or even at practice, otherwise, they would know that had they attempted to dis-arm him, they would, in a matter of a split second, be minus a few fingers or an ear - that is, if they were so fortunate as to be still alive.

We have no objection to the Judo Expert making this statement or to him continuing to teach his STAGE DIS-ARM but we get "very hot under the collar" when those responsible for the training of our young men for Combat duty,
publish Training Manuals in which they state and show photographs of a man being dis-armed by an Instructor with his bare hands.

NOTE - The Author again wishes to go on record - IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE".

Scientific studies have shown that the recorded speed of a forward snap-type strike originating from waist-level is 5.7 to 9.8 meters per second, or approximately 19 to 32 feet per second. The hand reaches maximum speed shortly before the arm is fully extended, and travels faster on the return stroke than on the forward stroke.

Based on the above, it can be estimated that it takes one-sixth of a second or less to execute a snap-type knife
strike. This assumes an average speed of 32 feet per second and a total distance of 62 inches.

Stress reaction time to any stimulus is approximately one-fifth of a second.

It is for the above reasons, among others, that we state there is no means by which an unarmed man can defend against a knife fighter.

Still, it must be acknowledged that there may come unfortunate circumstances in which one has no other choice but to make an attempt. In such unpleasant cases, usually played out at the end of an alley or in confinementy, the following guidelines may be of some small value if there is no place to run and no place to hide:

1. Obtain the advantage of distance. Stay as far away from the blade as circumstances permit.

2. Move contnually. Stay in motion, especially with multiple attackers. Move at least three feet in each second.

3. Concentrate on the knife. Do not be fooled by watching the attacker's eyes, hands, or any other part of his or her body. Pay attention to the knife.

4. Pay attention to timing. Semi-skilled and crude attackers manipulate knives according to an individual rhythm, usually of a very rapid nature. Be aware of this.

5. Do not close with your attacker. If you have no means of escape, allow him to close with you.

6. Evade the weapon before you counterattack. First get out of the way of the blade. If you must absorb cuts, try to avoid absorbing them with your arms and hands by using your feet. Note - this is "last ditch" advice!

7. Attack the forearm and the wrist simultaneously. Do not attack the hand. Attempt to immobilize the hand that holds the knife as rapidly as possible, then break the hand, wrist, elbow or arm. Strike the bridge of your attacker's nose with your head.

8. Never go to the ground with an attacker. Try to stay on your feet at all costs.

9. Do not "protect" wounds. If you are attacked by surprise and stabbed, and you cannot run, do not shrink back or "cover" your wounds as this will render your arms and hands vulnerable. At this stage, your arms and hands are your only means of defense. IMMEDIATELY counterattack the attacker's knife arm, or, in the alternative, "climb" your attacker using the remaining power in your legs. Be advised that most wounds result in a weakness in the legs, arising from the body's natural response to loss of blood.

10. Do not wrap a coat around your arm. Do try to find an expedient weapon, such as a belt or a stick.

Note: I have studied this issue for more than twenty-five years and have experienced the attentions of the finest instructors in the world. Please be assured that no martial arts school or technique can offer a predictable method of defense against a knife, and most of the techniques and methods one sees are suicidal against a knife fighter.

 

[arnisador]

Before I studied arnis, I thought I could use my karate skills to defend against a knife fighter.

Having learned something about knife fighting and having knife-sparred extensively with Mr. Hartman and with another arnis practitioner in California I am much more of the same mind as Col. Fairbairn.

I was stabbed at once in a mugging (three people, one had a knife). This was about a week before I tested for lakan. I did block that one attempt to stab at my stomach. The teenager with the knife was obviously unskilled with the knife and in fact I believe that he himself was a bit intimidated by the knife! It was a straight-in stab, uppercut punch style.

But I would not want to have to defend unarmed against anyone with even a modicum of training or experience in fighting with the knife. I have some ideas if I should ever need to do so, but it's not an odds-on situation.

 

[Cthulhu]

Here's a good test for knife disarm techniques:

1) Learn said technique
2) Practice, practice, practice
3) Try disarm technique on Dan Inosanto
4) Go to Emergency Room

:boing1: :boing2: :boing1:

Cthulhu

 

[Don Rearic]

Arnisador,

You're much more than a Grasshopper in this Game if you are listing Fairbairn as a reference and extracting THAT from his writing(s). So many people do not even know that material is out there and alot that do know it exists will claim it is B.S. because what they do is superior.

By that I mean this, what you quoted is DEAD ON accurate. Fairbairn knew the deal early on.

The material that came out of World War Two British SOE and American OSS is priceless in the way of observation of Combat realities.

"Tactical" Folders

On this subject, the first thing you have to decide is, how much do you want to spend? Because you can spend between $50 and $500.00 easily. I know some people will grown about that, but it is your Life and how much is it worth? The difference between a P.O.S. handgun and a Glock presents quite a gap as well. It's the same with knives. I would suggest you look in several ranges.

For example...

Datu Worden designed a knife called the WORTAC, you can read about that on his Site. This can be had in a Custom Form from Custom Knifemaker Pat Crawford for $375.00 to $425.00 for base models. That is a Custom Knife it must be remembered. It is one solid piece of cutlery...

Also, the Production version of that knife produced by Timberline, you can purchase on the Internet, still called the "WORTAC" and every bit as viable for Utility or Self-defense, the same knife, just not a Custom, handmade knife. You can obtain one of them for less than $50.00 believe it or not.

There are MANY different knives out there, as you say. And it is hard to choose when you are not knee-deep in that particular realm.

I'm sporting an Emerson Production Folder and a Semi-Custom [High End Production] Chris Reeve Sebenza at the moment.

The Production version of the WORTAC from Timberline is a STEAL at under $50.00 in most places. Not everyone is going to want to plop down $350.00 for a Chris Reeve Sebenza regardless of the qualities it has.

I can post more on this later.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
The material that came out of World War Two British SOE and American OSS is priceless in the way of observation of Combat realities.

I agree--we must listen to them and to current police and correctional officers. I always look for real data and real anecdotes from people with real experience. I believe that most martail arts were cutting-edge for the times and in the places they were developed--for the types of attacks those people most likely faced. And so I have learned kata designed for fighting in a rice paddy at dusk and techniques for defending against an attack by a smaurai swordsmen while seated in seiza. I enjoy the aesthetic and historical aspects of the arts but I don't confuse them with practical, modern, current self-defense. Sometimes it still works fine, other times it doesn't.

Also, the Production version of that knife produced by Timberline, you can purchase on the Internet, still called the "WORTAC" and every bit as viable for Utility or Self-defense, the same knife, just not a Custom, handmade knife. You can obtain one of them for less than $50.00 believe it or not.

I found a few:
http://www.crawfordknives.com/html/wortac.html
http://www.knifepro.com/details.asp?ProdID=2483
http://www.knifepro.com/details.asp?ProdID=2482
http://www.knifepro.com/details.asp?ProdID=2484
http://www.knifepro.com/details.asp?ProdID=2485

Are the latter four the production versions to which you referred? The knives I have now have a straighter handle as opposed to the ones above which are designed for a certain grip. (One of my knives follows this outline but it is much more nearly straight--the curve is less, well, curvy. Alas, I don't even know the terminology for the anatomy of the knife.) I'm not sure I'd find it comfortable though I imagine it improves the control.

There are MANY different knives out there, as you say. And it is hard to choose when you are not knee-deep in that particular realm.

Yes, I'm frankly overwhelmed by it. I'm also a bit embarrassed that while I consider myself reasonably knowledgeable about knife fighting--as much as a typical Modern Arnis instructor at least--I know so little about fighting knives themselves. I really don't know much about what to look for in a live blade. That's what I need--a reference like "A Primer on Knives for Knife Fighters". I think I'll hold off on the WORTAC until I get can get a feel of that grip or a similar one.

 

[Don Rearic]

Yes, the bottom link is the Production Model, HA! Well, the grip looks odd until you actually feel it. It feels rather great in forward grip or in forward saber grip, the thumb being "topside" on the frame of the knife. The thumb being in line with the handle/blade. It's also solid in reverse grip.

What that pseudo-pistol grip style of grip, along with the belly in that blade [the edge has a belly to it] is give you good edge and point orientation. It makes you more accurate actually. Some things become knife-specific.

But I would not be intimidated by it all. You can have a good, solid, working knowledge of cutlery like this in a few minutes of reading a day...over a matter of weeks, you will know quite a bit.

That particular knife is a tad on the heavy side, in order to keep the price down, the liners in the knife that lie under the actual "slabs" that form the handle are steel. In the Custom version they are Titanium. Titanium is roughly one-third the weight of steel. The knife is also thick, just being honest and neutral to review it for you. It is an awesome knife, but those are two things that you might want to consider as well.

But there are many different knives to choose from and that is just one.

I think if you really want something to work with, I would try out a Spyderco Endura and a matching trainer. Having the exact same knife in your hand, but one that will not cut or pierce is of great benefit if you work deployment drills... Accessing, drawing and opening under a bit of stress. You can work antigrappling drills with a dulled/rounded trainer as well.

 

[Don Rearic]

Here you go. I cut and pasted two pictures into a collage and trimmed them up with a border for ya. The larger of the two knives is the aforementioned Spyderco Endura. The smaller is a Spyderco Delica. The Endura, for an idea of scale, has a 3.95 or 4.0 inch blade. Forget which exactly! Both have the hole for one handed opening, which is ambidextrous. Both have a reversible pocket clip which make them ambidextrous for carry as well. So, the Delica is in the sub-3.5 inch range.

The bottom picture that is cut and pasted along with the top are Spyderco Red Handled Trainers that match the top two knives.

 

[arnisador]

Thanks for this suggestion. I do practice drawing and opening with a live blade because I believe that what we do in practice is what we'll do in an actual situation (albeit more sloppily when under pressure) but I'd rather have a non-sharpened version for most of my practicing alone and all of my practicing with a partner. I think it's a great idea. I did some web-searching and found the knife but not the corresponding trainer--I'll keep looking. I'd be quite willing to pay for a new blade but now will be looking for one that comes with a matching dummy. I thought they only did that on custom knives!

Thanks for pointing out the differences in the custom and production versions. I'm not yet ready to pay several hundred dollars for something I stick in my pocket on occasion and have never had to use, but I think I will try a cheaper version and see how well I like it then see if I can get ahold of someone's custom version at a seminar or camp and see if I can feel the difference. I'm still not sure that I'll like that "pistol-style" grip but I do want to give it a try.

 

[Mao]

Hey, this forum looks like fun.
As perhaps has been stated, unarmed knife defense is always a last resort. But we still should train for that last resort. I have used various methods for training both unarmed against a knife and knife v. knife. Unarmed training against a knife is pretty enlightning for most people. Funny story, I was using sidewalk chalk (snagged some of my daughters) and "knife" sparring in class. Two of my students were "playing" and one , much larger than the other, tried to enter rather strongly and brutishly and the smaller of the two got his "knife" stuck up the other guys nose! Everyone rolled. He had chalk all over his nose area and looked like a clown as the chalk was pink. His was white. Well, after it was over both had "cuts" all over. Hmmm, and both had a weapon. Needless to say that mt hand v knife is fun too. Evasion/movement is key.

 

[Don Rearic]

Better to get a little chalked up in training instead of on the concrete outside a local 7-11, I always say.

 

[Mao]

Well said. So true.

 

[IFAJKD]

This post has started some great discussion. I want to add that although I teach disarms I don't believe in teaching an empty hand defense against a knife. I have seen the pictures of the multiple stab wounds that a human body can endure but I believe it's the slashing or cutting that renders immediate damage. These tend to end rather quickly. That said I do think that in training knives and understanding how they work gives us a better chance to survive one. (survive means to live in this case)
Disarming does have another plus, that they tend to actually work best on the ground. So we train them there. Another aspect that we do is ground fight with that blade. Man does this change the game. Even an advanced ground fighter is rendered much like a white belt BJJ when this tool comes into play. The ground does slow things up and this is the factor that more greatly effects the disarm ability. Once disarmed, it is not necessarily gone however so the game continues and often turns into a ground fight to retrieve the blade. Many unpredictable things happen here.
Where I work this and attack by other improvised weapons are a constant and real threat. a recent attack has finally gotten us to a point where the State may fully implement improvised weapons defense aspects in their training of staff and officers.

 

[Despairbear]

I can not say that I agree, if you are attacked with a knife you are in a really bad position. But to not teach a type of defence aginst a knife is to render your self useless if you ever have to face one. Obviously your best option is to run but that is not always viable, what then? With no training you become prey, you have no options but to be killed. With training with open hand v.s. knife you at least have a chance as small as that might be. I find the thought of a knife being "unbeatable" to lead to a dangerus mind frame where loss and death are inevitable. This will destroy you long before the knife comes into play.




Despair Bear

 

[Mao]

I would agree with dispairbear. This idea would hold true for self defense in general. Fighting is a last option. As for the knife, certainly fighting with someone who has one is a last option. Even if you both have one it's an ugly place to be.

 

[IFAJKD]

I had to reread my post. I am not saying that I don't teach empty hand defense as such. I don't teach it as viable. I do teach the techniques but frame it realistically. Bu make no mistake about it ...If you are unarmed and the other has aknife you ARE prey...Another mind set would result in "fools rushing in" Any fight is a game of spatial relationships. It is a giving and takinbg of space. For some it is also a game of sensitivity and that means I give space until I can take it. then doing so, it must be decisively and wehn a threat or defense is met at this point s felt rather than seen. with a blade, your sensitivity has to be 100 times higher.
So Although I teach empty hand defense and disarms, I don't teach it unrealistically. In fact a great drill is the knife sensitivity drill done empty hand against a knife