What is your view?

[Don Rearic]

Bob,

And what you said about looking for pocket clips is dead-on too. Belt sheaths for like, Buck 110 Folders are basically antiquated now, but I agree...if you see one that is:

1. Unsnapped.
2. Flap folded back behind knife.
3. Flap cut off entirely, open sheath-pocket.
4. Sheath is upside down to drop the knife in the hand.

All of those indicates one of two things. You either have a Thinker or you have someone that has something specific on his mind.

Looking for any "printing" through clothing can give you a good heads up on what might be in your immediate future as well.

I know where I grew up, I was surrounded by Bikers and Dopers. Both of which were blade users.

The Buck 110 and all variants of that time from Old Timer, Case, Schrade, etc., as well as small skinner fixed blades worn openly and with a blade length that would not get them hassled by the Police in the 70s and early to mid 1980s...

These guys were treacherous. Those "Flick-Its" and "One Arm Bandits" that you could place on a Buck 110's blade back then before Spyderco popularized one handed openers were used sometimes, other times, guys would simply work a Buck 110 with gun oil until they could snap it open.

I personally knew one Biker who would have a Buck 110 in an open sheath on the left hand side to give the idea that he was left handed.

But he had a second concealed Buck 110 in his right back pocket and while he drew attention and someone was watching his left hand, deliberate misdirection and weapons fixation, he would have that right handed Buck 110 out in a flash.

This goes back to Enganyo as well. Deception.

Also, on two occasions...both outside of bars, I saw guys take a fantastic beating from "Chain Drive Belts."

To those that have never seen these nasty buggers, think of the chain drive belt, actually, if you are not familiar at all with this stuff...

Imagine you had four (4) bicycle chains that were not connected, meaning, you had four lengths of bicycle chain, lay them all side by side. Now imagine the links are twice as large and you have a belt that is over an inch wide...

That's a "Chain Drive Belt." I know they used to be sold in Harley Davidson Shops in the 80s and I have not seen them lately. They came with a big old, heavy metal Harley belt buckle as well. Guys actually wore these Judas Priest [hey! there's a blast from the past, yeah?] looking things in their pants. They were heavily chromed and shiny. And they were about the most vicious damned thing in a streetfight you ever did see. Right up there with Speed-O cables run through your belt loops...another old Streetfighter's Nasty.

I hear from a friend of mine who is into "Tactical Things" like you and I, that one Biker was busted and he had a chain wallet, right? The wallet had a large, flattened out chunk of lead in it. What this did was turned this big, rectangular Biker's Chain Wallet into a blackjack.

He beat the charge in Court, told the Judge that the weight was to hold it in his pocket. [Thanks for the info Seth!]

So, there are so many different things out there and I agree with you, you have to have eyes as sharp as your blade. You have to watch out...

 

[Bob]

yep, I know what your talking about with the bikers. Datu always tells stories about his biker associates too. Remember that article he wrote about 6 years ago, call "Biker ryu" (sp). He made mention of everything you spoke about.
I try to always remember that if a nice guy like me can think of these deceptive things then a guy who lives the life does too. I had a buddy ( notice had) he carried around one of those big "gurkas" (I know the spelling is wrong) and said that was his knife of choice. I proceeded to tell him and show him the error of his ways.
I think a good way to sum it all up is with a quote from a good friend, "I carry 3 knives and a ball point pen" "the first one is to show ya, the second and third is to throw at ya, and the ball point pen is to stick ya with".. That is not word for word, but pretty close........
I must say again you all have given me some good stuff to think about and remember....
Thanks
Bob

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Bob
Remember that article he wrote about 6 years ago, call "Biker ryu" (sp).

I have a little "Project" going on, Brother Bob, ask The Datu about that article today. Hahaha. It really had a TON of information in it. One of the few, priceless "Martial Arts Articles" that are floating around out there. Something Black Belt dare not print.

 

[Bob]

Originally posted by Don Rearic


I have a little "Project" going on, Brother Bob, ask The Datu about that article today. Hahaha. It really had a TON of information in it. One of the few, priceless "Martial Arts Articles" that are floating around out there. Something Black Belt dare not print.

I will do that...... And I will be looking forward to seeing the results your project. I am sure by the knowledge and energy you have displayed in this forum you will definately get your point across....
Bob

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
Bladed Motion: I will try to expand. When I teach JUn Fan Kickboxin combining drills from savate and muay Thai I basically teach to avoid the traditional slug fest. To do this you have to stick and move, evade, angle, intercept and destroy, Feint and fake and you utilize short rapid movements while your hands are constantly in motion with footwork supporting. If you can visualize this movement in a kickboxing senario you would see low line attacks. Attacks to open lines while it closes a follow up attack or perhaps Attack by drawing to another line. This is all bladed motion. the "cat like" stuff people talk about is actually there from knife sparring. I have a few rather big students who I teach to try to move like small men. They have acomplished this by Knife training.

Thanks, I think I get it now. Yes, knife training really changes a large fighter's perspective! You make much more use of that fact than I have. I'll think about it more.

 

[IFAJKD]

I'm glad that it made sense. It isn't that I make more of that fact it's just such a strong influence from Vunak that we train for attributes over technique. Knife gives us some incredible attributes.

 

[DWright]

My first self defense instructor was a Police Officer, and his words of wisdom were, "if you ever find yourself in a knife fight, draw your gun and shoot the SOB."

Smart man. He also taught a valuable lesson while teaching us knive disarms and sparring techniques. The lesson, Even the winner gets hurt. As proved withed chalked blades.

 

[paulk]

Hi

I have seen here in the UK some footage of US Police training videos showing some experiments on the effectiveness of a trained knife fighter against an officer with a gun.

The scenario was how far can a good knife fighter travel and cause damage before the officer can draw and get off 2 rounds.

The test showed that any closer that 21 feet and the cop was dead meat.

My point is that we should not discard knife defences from that we teach or learn, we should just put them into perspective.

Unarmed knife defences are designed to defend against a person with a knife. This is hugely different to defending against a knife fighter.

Oh and a Happy new Year to all

 

[Cthulhu]

PaulK,

I believe what you saw was the now famous Tueller Drill.

In the early 80's, a Utah deputy sheriff named Dennis Tueller ran a series of tests using people of different ages and body types. He found that, on average, a person could cover about 21 feet in roughly 1.5 seconds. Police officers (at that time...not sure of now) took about that amount of time to unholster their gun and fire two aimed shots. Tueller knew from experience that someone who has been shot doesn't necessarily drop right away, so he determined that a person armed with a knife of club 21 feet away from a LEO was a potentially lethal threat.

Note that the distance covered was pretty much for an average person, not necessarily a trained knife fighter.

Just look up 'Tueller Drill' in any search engine. You'll find loads of stuff.

Cthulhu

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by DWright
My first self defense instructor was a Police Officer, and his words of wisdom were, "if you ever find yourself in a knife fight, draw your gun and shoot the SOB."

I think that is a basic problem with Police Officers giving "hardcore" advice to folks without a careful examination of context and dynamics.

For most uniformed Police Officers, with some awareness, they WILL be able to do this now. The Filipino Martial Arts teach viable footwork that WORKS with firearms.

If you are on an open range and you can practice drawing as you sidestep or as you move through a triangle pattern of footwork to retreat on 45 degree angles, etc., you will see some magical material.

The problem then comes down to this.

There is the X Factor, the unknown.

Plainclothes Officers are usually not regular patrol officers, that's why I said "uniformed Police Officers."

Many times, uniformed Officers will be dispatched to a stabbing, cutting, beating, "man with an unknown weapon, man with a knife or man with a gun" call...

This is in context and an examination of dynamics.

The Citizen who has a concealed carry permit will almost without exception not have that luxury of foreknowledge to perform as many Police Officers suggest.

Likewise, the plainclothes Officer may or may not have that foreknowledge and the Off Duty Officer attacked at say, an ATM, will likewise not have that luxury.

When you have an idea of what the deal is going into the fray, you are much better prepared.

As Guro Dan Inosanto graphically demonstrated in Calibre Press' "Surviving Edged Weapons," it is not so easy to simply draw and shoot.

You can simply be bumrushed with a blade, your hands can be tied up in extreme CQC and if you get the hand on the firearm, it can be pinned there.

So it is always a matter of having the skill to deal with the initial attack and then draw whatever weapon you have, gun or knife.

Cthulhu's post is correct, re: Dennis Tueller.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
I believe what you saw was the now famous Tueller Drill.

Thanks, I hadn't known the history of this.

The advice I have heard from police is not to bother drawing the sidearm if the person has a knife and is within 18 feet of them. Maybe that takes into account the fact that 21 feet was based on an average person, or maybe it varies by state and other factors.

 

[Don Rearic]

It will vary from region to region, department to department. I think it is safe to say that if you have a knife in your hand and you are within thirty feet of most Police Officers and you are told to drop the knife. And you do not do so...you run a very real risk of eating some lead.

There will always be Officers who feel confident, right or wrong, in their ability and will allow some people to be in extreme, close proximity to them. But for the majority of Officers...if you are told to drop the knife from across the street, better drop it...

 

[DWright]

It has been my experience that the officers who are feeling confident are usually the ones that end up in the emergency room. The 21 foot rule has been challanged many times by those officers who think that they are "quick draw". I have yet to see one win.

A newer training style was to always carry, in hand, a PR-24,(side-handle baton) any time the officer makes a contact, good guy or bad. This dramatically increases the officers reaction time. With practice the officer can look pretty casual with it, but ready.

Great fun to play with too.

 

[IFAJKD]

First I don't think that anyone has said to discard disarms or any training. Only train in perspective. There are many varibles to a knife encounter. The constants are the ever changing angles, the point and the edge and potential for damage, bleeding out, trauma, shock, emotional & psychological effect and finally the long term effect such an event can have on you. I believe we will fight as we train. training in perspective does not mean we give up the fight but that we use another tool as well as our physical ones, our brains.
The aspect of how accurate even well trained officers will be under stress further muddy's the waters in an ability to effectivly shoot or not shoot. Many decisions go into pulling the trigger for someone NOT bent on destruction such as an officer, a citizen with a CCP or someone simply protecting themselves within their own home. THis stress does funny things to our perceptions, acuity, depth and steadiness, This against someone with a knife who IS bent on harming you and we can see how we already start off in a disadvantage. It is hard and often impossible to level that playing field so knowledge becomes our best weapon. Train this game as realistically as you can. Personally I have done more knife work than most yet not as much as maybe many on this site....yet I feel as if I have scratched the surface of knowledge. These are the posts that help us all sort throught these things
Thanks

 

[Bob]

Well said IFAJKD!!!! First of all I would like to say that the "one steps" or "techniques" taught to defend against a knife is the basis for developing it all into "knife fighting". Once you are relatively comfortable with your technique then the analysis begins. The questions on body position, options, return lines, fading, fainting, drawing mobility and the "reality of what you are training for" becomes more important.
I have been studying knife fighting for a little while and the reality came and smacked me in the face the first time I was confronted with a blade on the streets. Luckily, (thanks to the martial gods) my decision to re-act the way I did, defused the situation. That is when I found my perspective. I realized that I had not trained with perspective and did not fully appreciate the potential for danger. ( I was young and DUMB)
I guess the moral to this story is "perspective". I don't know how many of you all carry a blade for self-defense but I try to always express to younger or newer students the need to ask yourself do your really understand what you are studying. Do you feel that you could actually use this against someone??? I really try to express the reality of it all........
One of the questions police oral boards ask the interviewee is can you shoot someone. Well, yes but with a lot of therapy afterwards. Then I took that one step further and looked at how intimate and potentially final a knife fight or defending yourself with a knife can be. With a gun there usually a little distance, but with a knife especially a clip-it you are right there.....
I know this sounds dramatic, but I think these questions help us gain perspective on what we are studying. There is a responsibility with teaching self defense, but when it comes to weapons and especially knifes there is a greater responsibility to ensure that students find that perspective before they learn the hard way......
I hope my dramatic rantings do some good, and I hope my point was clear.
Thanks
Bob

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by DWright
It has been my experience that the officers who are feeling confident are usually the ones that end up in the emergency room. The 21 foot rule has been challanged many times by those officers who think that they are "quick draw". I have yet to see one win.

I know one, local, 25 year veteran on a Department that is good enough to draw extremely fast. I know because I shoot with him.

Let me say something that is unpopular with some Law Enforcement folks currently. They take it as an "insult."

The basic thing is this. The handgun is a tool of their job. As their job became more of a Social Worker's, the weapons-aspect was downplayed. Almost...in some areas...to the point of shunning skill with a handgun.

Sadly, today...most Police Officers are not Gun Owners, I know about a dozen that only "own" the handgun they are issued. I know a good bit more that have purchased with their own money, a compact version of the Duty Weapon they have been issued, that is the only firearm they really own besides the Department Issued piece.

Without exception, the best shooters I know on these local departments are not only Gun Owners, they own multiple guns and they LIKE guns. In fact, alot of them are NRA Members. I think this is something that Police Administrators like to gloss over.

If you want to be skilled with a lathe, you must learn it, then you must experiment with it and to be truly skilled...indeed, you must enjoy it. Any sort of Machinist Equipment is that way.

It is an intimate knowledge, familiarity.

I would not say that all Police are "doomed" within that sphere, but they are most certainly in danger, extreme danger.

As Police Departments become increasingly politicized and antigun, you will see less skill. You will see qualifications but that does not mean squat. A qualification is just that, a minimum standard for keeping your job.

It is that intimate knowledge and skill at arms that will save you in the most dire circumstances and it matters not if your weapon is like mine, a Sig Sauer P-220 semiautomatic handgun, a Custom fixed blade or folding knife, a $50.00 Spyderco or a telescoping ASP baton. It does not matter.

Most, not all, but most Officers today do not have that intimate knowledge, nor are they actively encouraged to cultivate it. Instead, they are shunned as "Gun Nuts" if they do. If they want to carry a folding knife around here, they better answer to the Lt. or Capt. that it is a seat belt cutter and not as a back up tool in close quarters. If so...you get the idea, they can be branded a "Nut" just as easily as any defense-minded person can be.

They have their own bucket of excrement they have to deal with as well. And quite frankly, some of them simply look at their job like someone looks at a management position at a Wal-Mart. It's just a job to them. That's not an insult, that is a reality.

It is the Officer who enjoys shooting, he is the one that will usually be much more skilled. That is not encouraged today in most departments. And no videotape beyond giving them a few, logical and simple concepts, will ever make them more viable on the street with their handgun.

Everyone remembers when they first learned to drive. Can you imagine spending the time with a Learner's Permit and then you go out and you drive for two hours every six months? How good are you going to get? How fast and accurate will you be when it counts? In a car, will you be able to check those mirrors every 7 to 14 seconds and find your "Out" in traffic BY AUTOMATIC RESPONSE...? How will your reflexes be?

Substitute "Learner's Permit" with "Police Academy" and the "every six months" as the In-Service Qualification.

Even quarterly qualification is not that great!

No, it is the Officer that actually enjoys shooting that is going to be the most effective.

This has a place in this conversation. And for those that wish to carry edged or impact weapons defensively, for lifesaving purposes, take heed. It applies to you as well.

 

[IFAJKD]

Yeah, very well said as well. I struggled with teaching certain knife aspects in mixed arts classes but when I finally began to really dive into it a funny thing happened. Prior to this I would talk at length about the reality of blades and students would nod and yes me on it, some challenges but not many and never for long, but some even talked the talk. They had a very cerebral understanding of knife culture and effectiveness. It wasn't until I demo'd it for real that they had very clear reans, some disgust, some queezy, some just wanting to avoid the whole thing.....It just really hit me that though they responded with apparent understanding, they didn't get it on an emotional level. Their intellectual understanding was clear and I believe very real but their true self didn't understand it. In this case they didn't know what they didn't know.
On NPR today someone mentioned (regarding avalanches) that "experience is the result of bad decisions that you have lived through." Well then, I "TRY" to make my class full of opportunities to make bad decisions to result in an experience you will live through. The street is not so forgiving.

I have to say that I have many opinions and never mean to come off as a guru or even to have any truths. I do not. And I apologize in advance, if I, at times, come off as I do. I just read most of my posts before I let em go and sometimes I wonder how It must sound. Make no mistake, I am a lifetime student.

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
I have to say that I have many opinions and never mean to come off as a guru or even to have any truths. I do not. And I apologize in advance, if I, at times, come off as I do. I just read most of my posts before I let em go and sometimes I wonder how It must sound. Make no mistake, I am a lifetime student.

Friend,

I agree. Let me tell you something, I know some "Experts." I also know that I would never refer to myself as being one. I think "Expert" simply means you have nothing left to learn. That is not an insult, I think what I'm trying to say is...you stop learning, you stop growing, you stop growing, you're stunted.

I much prefer, "Operates on an Expert Level" to any sort of title. Because I have watched "Experts" become quickly baffled by a complete novice if for no other reason, they simply never expected for someone to do something so simple or stupid.

Even the simple and stupid things can kill you. This is why I advise people to obtain whatever materials they can find on whatever subject [defensive] they are interested in. I have a few knifefighting books that are HORRIBLE. But you know something? Someone out there who does not know a damned thing could pick something stupid out of that book and ace me with it if for no other reason I am so arrogant as to think no one would try or succeed at pulling it off.

No apologies necessary, you post well!

Respect,

Don

 

[Bob]

It is true and sad that police officers today are not encouraged, or given the opportunity to learn and practice the craft of Law enforcement. Being a good smart cop is an art... Mr. Rearic you are right it is the guy who loves guns who make the best shot because they practice and believe in what they are doing. I have a friend who is 2nd in command of a department here in Washington and he constantly trains weights/ firearms and hand to hand/weapon tactics, but he will also be the first to show you some great people skill too. He loves what he does and take it serious and creates opportunities for his officers to learns more about reality. I also know that his department is requiring training in knife tactics in order to carry a blade on duty..And on the otherside of the spectrum I know cops who don't really care as long as they know enough to pass their tests.
In regards to IFAJKD, you have never came across as anothing more then a person who loves what he is doing. The point of my last post was more for the younger generation as well as the old ones that sometimes need to be reminded of the basics.... That is what I like about this thread it has brought out a lot of issues that I have not taken into account for sometime.
In regards to Mr.Rearic and the beginners AMEN, the hardest most humbling lesson learned by a black belt is that a white belt is a hard person to handle!!!! That is why I find it the utmost importance that no matter how good, or knowledgable we get we have to remember the basics is where it is at, and what go us all to our levels..............
Thanks
Bob

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
No, it is the Officer that actually enjoys shooting that is going to be the most effective.

Even today, an officer draws his or her firearm much less often than one might think and actually firing it remains a relatively rare occurrence. From Portland:

Only 4.4 officers were involved annually in fatal shootings. In other words, and average officer could expect to be on the force 193 years without getting involved in a fatal shooting.

From MIT:

There have been "two, maybe three situations" in the past 22 years at the Institute in which a police officer has had to fire a weapon, Glavin said. There have been none such instances in recent years, she added.

From a NYC police recruitment ad:

In the ad, Detective Wally Salem recounts the statistic that "98 percent of police officers never shoot their guns."

The "social work" aspect as you put it is a big part of their work nowadays, for better or worse. Drawing the weapon happens but firing it is rather uncommon. Therefore, I must disagree with your statement that "it is the Officer that actually enjoys shooting that is going to be the most effective" unless you meant it in the essentially tautological sense of being most effective at shooting (which goes without saying). He or she won't necessarily be any more effective at the vast bulk of his or her job. Shooting things is not a large part of a police officer's job, unless their beat is on NBC.

If I were a police officer I would want to be prepared for this despite the rarity. But speaking for myself, I feel differently from you in that I do not lament the lack of gun owners amongst police officers (if this is indeed the case). It's only one tool of many; one might say the same about the lack of escrimadors, judoka, or psychologists. I would like to see more people going into police work because they want to serve the community, not because of their feelings for or against guns.

We're now discussing politics rather than martial arts! Perhaps we will have to request a forum for that.