What is the reason for formailty in the dojang?
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
+1.
I also believe in the value of bowing in and out.
It is a clear way of mentally making the switch and saying 'Class is now in session and I will think of nothing else'. The physical motion makes it easier to make this switch from one monet to the other.
My time in class is limited by availability of the dojo. I don't want to waste any time on people fooling around, making jokes, telling stories, or doing other things that cut into my training time. Before and after class I enjoy socializing. During class... not so much. And having a structure makes his easier.
Manny
Senior Master
My former and actual dojang are very formal, with a MA code and etiquete and this is to be unified amoung us and to adress high standars of disipline.
Iam going to tell you this, in my TKD dojang I have to dress with a clean an well ironed white dobok, nails (hands and feet) cliped, with a decent haircut and combed, the student,intsructor and sambonim always clean. We have to bow at the entrance to the sambonim and fellows ask permision to get inside the mat, the same when finishing class and this forges character,loyalty and a good basis, everyone know his place in the dojang, estrict!!! yes and this pays very well, the sambonim is our boss, our rol model and we have to be very polite amoung us inside and outside the dojang, bad behavoir or languaje or maners are forbiden.
The oposite is in my Kenpo Karate Dojo, there is no uniformity in the clothes, sensei wear what ever, red,black,white, the students wear what ever they wanted dirty tshirts and shorts or even a gi in the color you want, languaje is more leaxed, I am the only guy who speaks to the sensei as profesor the other gusy name it by his name, I am the only one who bows at the sensei and before to get inside the matt or training area the same when I leave the dojo, sometimes the students get inside chewing gum, the dojo is nice and the kenpo taught there is good howevere the formality and etiquete rules are almost non existing. The atmosphere is more relaxed.
I am old school were the sambonim or sensei is our superior inside and outside the dojang, where the word "Sir" is the norm, where everyone has to be quiet listening to the sambonim and paying atention, were jokes and lour laugs are not permited and that's the way I like the dojang and that's the way my dojang it's gona be in a future.
Manny
Omar B
Senior Master
Very much so man. Once my aunt came to pick me up at my old dojo when I was like 12. She comes into the gym and says during class "I'm here Omar, the cab's waiting outside." I didn't respond, there were 10 minutes left and I was punching. She announced herself again and I didn't respond, then she walked onto the floor! Sensei stopped her and gave me push ups for what she did. When class is going on, there is one focus, Sensei, the rest of the world does not exist.
I hate wondering eyes, talking, giggling, not facing Sensei.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
The "Mental Switch" is definitely a factor to consider.
IMNSHO Formal systems are military in Nature I.e rank structure.
The formality is a carryover from Military systems.
IMNSHO Formal systems are military in Nature I.e rank structure.
The formality is a carryover from Military systems.
Manny
Senior Master
My sambonim once told me this thing.... President of México Miguel de la Madrid Hurtado said that any MA dojo no matter exelent or average is better than no dojo... Why??? because in dojos the children and even grown men learn good attitude, maners, respect, loyalty,etc,etc.
I have seen that kids doing any MA have good to very good grades at school and those are the men of tomorrow.
TKD did for em several things in my teen years like focus in the school, good grades, stay away of alcohol,cigarrets (wow those day we haven¡t drugs like crack,pot or anithing else) an the only thing I did was school and dojang.
Manny
I have seen that kids doing any MA have good to very good grades at school and those are the men of tomorrow.
TKD did for em several things in my teen years like focus in the school, good grades, stay away of alcohol,cigarrets (wow those day we haven¡t drugs like crack,pot or anithing else) an the only thing I did was school and dojang.
Manny
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Im all for it , it creates a good environment to workout and where kids are involved formality can only be a good thing. I see the results as I see young kids grow and develop through their training. As a matter of fact , When I need a new apprentice for my business I always look and choose from my dojang because by the time the kids hit 17 or 18 they have good manner , respect and make model employees.
Very good point, which lends itself to respect and discipline. These are two very good attributes when considering serious self defense.
punisher73
Senior Master
Exactly, the japanese style format was to prepare children for the military so everyone did everything the same and had a strict structure.
From things I have read, earlier okinawan dojos were a little bit less formal and students would come throughout the day and then leave when they were done. It was more "family" structure.
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
Discipline and structure promote learning self-discipline and reinforce the expectation that the student will give all of his attention and his best effort. That shows respect to the instructor and the art, and helps the student learn more quickly.
Rank structure and enforced courtesy remind us to be respectful of others. Because we are learning skills that can harm others it is important to balance that learning with education in courtesy, respect, and self-control
A basic rule of running any class anywhere is that you get what you put up with. Whatever is the minimum you will accept, there are some students who will do just that. That's not ideal, but it's reality.
Carl
Rank structure and enforced courtesy remind us to be respectful of others. Because we are learning skills that can harm others it is important to balance that learning with education in courtesy, respect, and self-control
A basic rule of running any class anywhere is that you get what you put up with. Whatever is the minimum you will accept, there are some students who will do just that. That's not ideal, but it's reality.
Carl
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
I'm not sure that I have much to add to this thread that has not been already covered.. . But here it goes:
The formalities in my dojang come from two backgrounds I believe.
1. We practice MARTIAL (i.e. military) arts. The respect, discipline, chain of command, etc.. . come from this background. They build character and foster a better mental attitude in my students, which in turns brings more out of them physically. It took me 7 years to earn my black belt, and for the first few years all I did was push-ups, because I could not keep my eyes on my instructor or my mouth shut (typical young child with little attention span).
I agree with the above post, that parents bring their children in for the self-discipline, self-respect, and self-confidence this martial structure provides. It is typically the adults that come in for the self-defense aspect. The great thing is though, you get all of these benefits in a good TMA school.
2. Korea is one of the most confucius societies on earth, and the traditions passed down from my Kwan Jang Nim are steeped in it. This is both good and bad, IMHO. The Confucius saying (paraphrasing here), "If I like you, I scold you, If I love you, I beat you" Holds very true in our association. If you are under a typical Korean patriarch, it can be deeply frustrating.. . The good students have little interaction with the Kwan Jang Nim and are constantly being repremanded because they are held to such high standards. This is because he sees potential and respects you. The mediocre student, he lets slide by and and tends to be more approachable with. This is because he sees little potential, and does not respect them as much. As I continue to write about #2, I see this is drifting off of the OP, so please refer more to #1, HAHA!
The formalities in my dojang come from two backgrounds I believe.
1. We practice MARTIAL (i.e. military) arts. The respect, discipline, chain of command, etc.. . come from this background. They build character and foster a better mental attitude in my students, which in turns brings more out of them physically. It took me 7 years to earn my black belt, and for the first few years all I did was push-ups, because I could not keep my eyes on my instructor or my mouth shut (typical young child with little attention span).
I agree with the above post, that parents bring their children in for the self-discipline, self-respect, and self-confidence this martial structure provides. It is typically the adults that come in for the self-defense aspect. The great thing is though, you get all of these benefits in a good TMA school.
2. Korea is one of the most confucius societies on earth, and the traditions passed down from my Kwan Jang Nim are steeped in it. This is both good and bad, IMHO. The Confucius saying (paraphrasing here), "If I like you, I scold you, If I love you, I beat you" Holds very true in our association. If you are under a typical Korean patriarch, it can be deeply frustrating.. . The good students have little interaction with the Kwan Jang Nim and are constantly being repremanded because they are held to such high standards. This is because he sees potential and respects you. The mediocre student, he lets slide by and and tends to be more approachable with. This is because he sees little potential, and does not respect them as much. As I continue to write about #2, I see this is drifting off of the OP, so please refer more to #1, HAHA!
JWLuiza
Black Belt
I came up in a relaxed school There were protocols that were important for safety and smooth running of classes, but not an overly militaristic setting. I found for me, that this approach works best. I've visited other Korean schools and felt uncomfortable with the formality.
I really don't see a problem with it, I just prefer not to train at schools that operate in that manner.
I really don't see a problem with it, I just prefer not to train at schools that operate in that manner.
My first MA school was kind of formal. We did not have any excessive rituals, no one (including the teachers) had a title other than Mr./Mrs./Ms.
We wore uniforms. There were some class rules, such as an entry/exit bow, exchanging bows with your partner before undergoing a routine, and everyone reciting the same creeds at the beginning of class.
I do like a structured environment where, as Omar said, there is a chain-of-command, and everyone in class is tight and focused. I am not crazy about some the formalities some schools instigate, such as saying who puts their belt on when.
Personally I found that being in that environment as a novitiate was a very interesting experience. When I started my training, I had other things in my life that were not going well. To look around the room and see everyone dressed in white (or black), helped focus my mind. It helped me develop an identity for myself....no matter how bad things get, I am still "somebody". I'm a karate student. It also helped me focus. Yes things all around me were going wrong, but I get to forget about all of that for the next hour or so.
We wore uniforms. There were some class rules, such as an entry/exit bow, exchanging bows with your partner before undergoing a routine, and everyone reciting the same creeds at the beginning of class.
I do like a structured environment where, as Omar said, there is a chain-of-command, and everyone in class is tight and focused. I am not crazy about some the formalities some schools instigate, such as saying who puts their belt on when.
Personally I found that being in that environment as a novitiate was a very interesting experience. When I started my training, I had other things in my life that were not going well. To look around the room and see everyone dressed in white (or black), helped focus my mind. It helped me develop an identity for myself....no matter how bad things get, I am still "somebody". I'm a karate student. It also helped me focus. Yes things all around me were going wrong, but I get to forget about all of that for the next hour or so.
Personally, I believe in a degree of formality. It helps breed respect, IMO. Even out of class I have always referred to my instructors, some of whom are personal friends, as either "Master", "Sir", "Ma'am." I once had a father-son team of instructors who I refused to refer to even to someone else by their first names. The only way to tell was the older instructor was a fifth dan black belt and therefore "Master" rather than "Mr." Got a bit confusing but they were by far my best source of instruction, competition and opportunity and continue to be today.
CoryKS
Senior Master
I think that the formality emphasizes a mindset that is serious about the task at hand. In a setting in which people are throwing kicks and punches at each other, a loosey-goosey approach can lead to accidents.
On a similar note, the adherence to a somewhat exaggerated show of respect for one another can reduce the likelihood that hard feelings will occur in the event of an accident or a shot thrown with a force that is harder than was agreed upon. If the recipient feels that his partner was being intentionally disrespectful, the level of contact may rise to a degree that is not optimal for training. Things like requiring students to say "Sir" or "Ma'am" may alleviate that.
On a similar note, the adherence to a somewhat exaggerated show of respect for one another can reduce the likelihood that hard feelings will occur in the event of an accident or a shot thrown with a force that is harder than was agreed upon. If the recipient feels that his partner was being intentionally disrespectful, the level of contact may rise to a degree that is not optimal for training. Things like requiring students to say "Sir" or "Ma'am" may alleviate that.
ATC
Senior Master
In my opinion only, if you want to learn to kick and punch then any format relaxed or formal will do.
However if you want all that a Martial Art can give then you need the formalities.
Try and tech a class full (20+) of 5-10 year olds without formalities or structure. You will see chaos, I have seen it in many schools that we visit. Kids will take as much as you let them.
Formal dojangs tend to teach better as everyone is on the same page and there are fewer distractions than in a relaxed dojang.
Just my .02
However if you want all that a Martial Art can give then you need the formalities.
Try and tech a class full (20+) of 5-10 year olds without formalities or structure. You will see chaos, I have seen it in many schools that we visit. Kids will take as much as you let them.
Formal dojangs tend to teach better as everyone is on the same page and there are fewer distractions than in a relaxed dojang.
Just my .02
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