tkd sparring

[ralphmcpherson]

I ran into a mate the other day who does karate and he was showing me the pads he had just bought. Now I know nothing about karate and curiosity led me to asking him about the rules by which he spars with in karate. The sparring he does (I have no idea what form of karate he does) is non contact , they must hold back their punches and kicks. They have no strikes below the belt and the only real differences to tkd sparring I could see were that he said there are little to no head kicks and they can punch to the face but must 'hold back' so as not to make contact. He stressed to me that any hard contact at all was frowned upon. It got me thinking , particularly in relation to manny's thread regarding why people look down so much on tkd , and a lot of people feel this is because of our sparring and the rules we use. I am certainly not bashing karate here as I love all martial arts but it made me think we get a rough deal as tkdists considering the only real differences I could see between my sparring and his was that not only are we allowed full contact , it is actually encouraged. We also kick as hard as we want to the head. They can strike to the face , which obviously we cant , but with little to no contact. All in all it just got me thinking about why people are so hard on us about our sparring when it actually doesnt seem too different at all to what some other ma's do , plus we add the full contact. So why is our sparring looked down on so much? At my club we spar by olympic rules but punches are heavily encouraged and we keep our guard up so I imagine it would look similar to my mate's karate sparring. Aslo, is what he told me about karate sparring true for most karate or is he doing a "dumbed down" version. Im just curious.

 

[ATC]

I ran into a mate the other day who does karate and he was showing me the pads he had just bought. Now I know nothing about karate and curiosity led me to asking him about the rules by which he spars with in karate. The sparring he does (I have no idea what form of karate he does) is non contact , they must hold back their punches and kicks. They have no strikes below the belt and the only real differences to tkd sparring I could see were that he said there are little to no head kicks and they can punch to the face but must 'hold back' so as not to make contact. He stressed to me that any hard contact at all was frowned upon. It got me thinking , particularly in relation to manny's thread regarding why people look down so much on tkd , and a lot of people feel this is because of our sparring and the rules we use. I am certainly not bashing karate here as I love all martial arts but it made me think we get a rough deal as tkdists considering the only real differences I could see between my sparring and his was that not only are we allowed full contact , it is actually encouraged. We also kick as hard as we want to the head. They can strike to the face , which obviously we cant , but with little to no contact. All in all it just got me thinking about why people are so hard on us about our sparring when it actually doesnt seem too different at all to what some other ma's do , plus we add the full contact. So why is our sparring looked down on so much? At my club we spar by olympic rules but punches are heavily encouraged and we keep our guard up so I imagine it would look similar to my mate's karate sparring. Aslo, is what he told me about karate sparring true for most karate or is he doing a "dumbed down" version. Im just curious.

Not to mention that Olympic rules sparring is continuous. The action only stops for infractions of the rules. Many Karate sparring matches stop on every point. I have seen some that stop on every technique that looks as if I may have scored, for judgment of the point.

I think TKD gets a bad rap for its sparring due to no hand to head contact. Many see this as incomplete and foolish. Well it is only a sport and guess what? In soccer you can't use your hands either. In basketball you can't use your feet. It is just a simple sport to show case what the art sees as its outstanding set of features is all. But many can't seem to get pass that or understand it. I think that many just want their art to be the end all art and look for any reason to boost their own art. Anyone that does TKD knows that there are punches and hand techniques as well as all the kicking that most only see due to the sport.

I really could care less what they think about my art. I have had many other people come in to our dojang from other arts crossing over to TKD and once they are exposed to TKD they are pretty impressed with it. We have even had Karate exchange students from Japan come stay with some families that are in our dojang and they too were impressed with what we do. Different from what they do but not all that much.

People just have learn to separate sport from art, if they can't then just ignore them altogether.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Not to mention that Olympic rules sparring is continuous. The action only stops for infractions of the rules. Many Karate sparring matches stop on every point. I have seen some that stop on every technique that looks as if I may have scored, for judgment of the point.

I think TKD gets a bad rap for its sparring due to no hand to head contact. Many see this as incomplete and foolish. Well it is only a sport and guess what? In soccer you can't use your hands either. In basketball you can't use your feet. It is just a simple sport to show case what the art sees as its outstanding set of features is all. But many can't seem to get pass that or understand it. I think that many just want their art to be the end all art and look for any reason to boost their own art. Anyone that does TKD knows that there are punches and hand techniques as well as all the kicking that most only see due to the sport.

I really could care less what they think about my art. I have had many other people come in to our dojang from other arts crossing over to TKD and once they are exposed to TKD they are pretty impressed with it. We have even had Karate exchange students from Japan come stay with some families that are in our dojang and they too were impressed with what we do. Different from what they do but not all that much.

People just have learn to separate sport from art, if they can't then just ignore them altogether.

All very true. It is a shame that people base their entire opinion of an art just on what the sparring rule set is. There is so much more to tkd than what people see on the surface. Its a good point you make about our sparring being continuous , if it stopped after each point how are you supposed to learn counter attacks? We have had quite a few people from other martial arts come and train with us and they have a look of complete surprise after their first session , I think too many people are quick to bag out something they really know very little about.

 

[chungdokwan123]

Not to mention that Olympic rules sparring is continuous. The action only stops for infractions of the rules. Many Karate sparring matches stop on every point. I have seen some that stop on every technique that looks as if I may have scored, for judgment of the point.

I was going to offer much the same commentary. I visited a local karate tournament and noticed the same thing......technique applied....stop and award the point.....continue on.....etc., etc., and.......not much contact at all. I don't want to disrespect any art as I recognize that tournaments do not showcase all aspects of an art, but I left the venue unimpressed.

I think TKD gets a bad rap for its sparring due to no hand to head contact. Many see this as incomplete and foolish.

My Kwan Jang Nim told me......that while hand techniques are important.....the legs are longer and stronger than the arms......and I know from personal experience that I'd rather make contact with an opponent via a well placed kick rather than a punch. A boxer's fracture lasts a lifetime.

I really could care less what they think about my art.

Indeed. Well said.

 

[Manny]

Nice post, and I am glad to contrubute with it, as you said judo is grapling/trown art you won't see any kick for example, yes some karate styles pull the punch/kick in sport and that's why the MA is so rich, any one of the MA styles have thir pros and cons and there is no single MA that is better than the other.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

My Kwan Jang Nim told me......that while hand techniques are important.....the legs are longer and stronger than the arms......and I know from personal experience that I'd rather make contact with an opponent via a well placed kick rather than a punch.

I bet that most who criticize TKDs ban on hand techniques to the head in formal competition have not been kicked in the head during full-contact sparring. It doesn't take very many kicks to the head to learn you still have to protect it.

Carl

 

[JWLuiza]

Point sparring has its own detractors. I'm convinced that not ever doing full contact is a bad thing. Some schools do both point sparring (no contact) and continuous sparring (with contact). I'm not sure how those are judged,

 

[dancingalone]

The sparring he does (I have no idea what form of karate he does) is non contact , they must hold back their punches and kicks. They have no strikes below the belt and the only real differences to tkd sparring I could see were that he said there are little to no head kicks and they can punch to the face but must 'hold back' so as not to make contact. He stressed to me that any hard contact at all was frowned upon. It got me thinking , particularly in relation to manny's thread regarding why people look down so much on tkd , and a lot of people feel this is because of our sparring and the rules we use. I am certainly not bashing karate here as I love all martial arts but it made me think we get a rough deal as tkdists considering the only real differences I could see between my sparring and his was that not only are we allowed full contact , it is actually encouraged. We also kick as hard as we want to the head. They can strike to the face , which obviously we cant , but with little to no contact. All in all it just got me thinking about why people are so hard on us about our sparring when it actually doesnt seem too different at all to what some other ma's do , plus we add the full contact. So why is our sparring looked down on so much? At my club we spar by olympic rules but punches are heavily encouraged and we keep our guard up so I imagine it would look similar to my mate's karate sparring. Aslo, is what he told me about karate sparring true for most karate or is he doing a "dumbed down" version. Im just curious.

You've guessed it. There is no such thing as universal sparring rules for karate. The Kyokushin people would be rather put out if someone remarked that they spar "no contact". Check out some of the fights on youtube to get an idea as to their level of contact. It's pretty darn rough. As for my own karate dojo, our randori includes grabs and takedowns and we have punching to the head. It's no joke either.

Stories like yours are evidence that it's not so much the style that is important - it's the quality and intensity of the instructor and his teaching methods.

 

[dancingalone]

I was going to offer much the same commentary. I visited a local karate tournament and noticed the same thing......technique applied....stop and award the point.....continue on.....etc., etc., and.......not much contact at all. I don't want to disrespect any art as I recognize that tournaments do not showcase all aspects of an art, but I left the venue unimpressed.

Point sparring is rarely impressive regardless of where it comes from. The open tournaments like NASKA have a variety of competitors who come from all different styles of karate, TKD, and kung fu/wushu. They all spar under the same unimpressive rule set.

 

[Manny]

Point sparring is rarely impressive regardless of where it comes from. The open tournaments like NASKA have a variety of competitors who come from all different styles of karate, TKD, and kung fu/wushu. They all spar under the same unimpressive rule set.

And the rule set is? light contact? how points are awarded?

manny

 

[dancingalone]

And the rule set is? light contact? how points are awarded?

manny

Here you go: Basically light to moderate contact but you can punch the face. Leg checks to the back of the front leg are OK too, but this can be a grey area.


PDF of rules:http://www.naska.com/9-2009_NASKA_Rules.pdf


WHAT IS A POINT: A point is a controlled legal sport karate technique scored by a competitor in-bounds and up-right (not considered down) without time being called that strikes a competitor with the allowable amount of focused touch contact to a legal target area.
LEGAL TARGET AREAS: Entire head and face, ribs, chest, abdomen, collarbone and kidneys. ILLEGAL TARGET AREAS: Spine, back of neck, throat, sides of the neck, groin, legs, knees and back. NON-TARGET AREAS: Hips, shoulders, buttocks, arms, and feet. LEGAL TECHNIQUES: Legal techniques are all controlled sport karate techniques, except those listed as illegal. ILLEGAL TECNIQUES: Head butts, hair pulls, bites, scratches, elbows, knees, eye attacks of any kind, take downs on a hard surface floor, ground fighting on a hard surface, any stomps or kicks to the head of a downed competitor, slapping, grabbing for more than one second, uncontrolled blind techniques, any uncontrolled throws, takedowns or sweeps and any other uncontrolled dangerous techniques that are deemed unsafe in sport karate.
GRABBING: A competitor may grab the uniform top of his/her opponent in an attempt to score with a sport karate technique for only one second (immediately), after which time he/she must release the uniform. Likewise, the uniform pants may be grabbed for one second to an upright opponent in an attempt to score.
SWEEPS, TAKEDOWNS, GRABS AND GROUND FIGHTING: Sweeps not to take down an opponent, but only to obstruct the balance so as to follow up with a sport karate technique can only be executed to the back of the front leg at mid-calf or below. A sweep must be deemed a proper sweep and not a kick, to be legal. Controlled Takedowns and sweeps that are meant to take down an opponent are allowed only a declared apporved padded surface. A point is awarded only when the legal sweep or takedown is followed up effectively legally and immediately with an appropriate sport karate technique. Only a hand technique or a carefully controlled kick or stomp to the body is allowed on a downed competitor. One Foot must be on the ground throughout the stomp or kick. Never, under any circumstances, may a competitor stomp or kick to the head of a downed competitor.
LIGHT TOUCH CONTACT: Means there is no penetration or visible movement of the competitor as a result of the contact. Light touch is required to all legal target areas in all black belt sparring divisions. The face shield of a head gear is a legal target area.
MODERATE TOUCH CONTACT: Means slight penetration or slight target movement. Moderate touch contact may be made to all legal target areas except the headgear, face shield and face.

 

[blindsage]

Wearing a hogu (and head gear) is not full contact. Kicks are great until someone gets ahold of you. I've known a few talented TKDists and I have a lot of respect for TKD's kicking technique, but the focus in many schools and the style of sparring is too narrow IMHO. If you like kicking more than punching that's great, but if you think kicking is generally more effective than hand techniques, IMO, you need more experience.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

You've guessed it. There is no such thing as universal sparring rules for karate. The Kyokushin people would be rather put out if someone remarked that they spar "no contact". Check out some of the fights on youtube to get an idea as to their level of contact. It's pretty darn rough. As for my own karate dojo, our randori includes grabs and takedowns and we have punching to the head. It's no joke either.

Stories like yours are evidence that it's not so much the style that is important - it's the quality and intensity of the instructor and his teaching methods.

I agree totally that it is the intensity of instructor and his teaching methods and that is why I dont like to just generalise that one art is good/bad or that their sparring is good/bad. Most people feel the same , but funny thing is that people as a general rule like to bag out on tkd because of their sparring without taking these other things into consideration. Its almost as if people recognise that no two karate, kung fu etc clubs are the same and should be evaluated individually but for some reason people "generally" lump all tkd clubs together and make broad sweeping generalisations.

 

[blindsage]

When the perception the majority of people have is that the majority of schools or practitioners do things a certain way, then it's pretty natural that broad, sweeping generalizations will be made. Doesn't mean they're 100% correct, it means they're generalizations.