What is the absolute least common denominator for all Taekwondo schools?

[skribs]

What is the least common denominator for Taekwondo? By that, I mean, what is the core curriculum that, regardless of TKD organization or lineage, regardless of the school's proclivity towards traditional, modern, sport, self-defense, etc., you expect Taekwondo students to know how to do?

From what I can tell, the commonalities between TKD schools are:

• Horse stance punches
• Kicks, including: front, roundhouse/turning, side, axe kick, crescent kick, hook kick, and spinning back and spinning hook kick
• Kicking footwork and combinations
• Forms
• Sparring using kicks to the body

Everything else, including punches, other hand strikes, other targets in sparring, weapons, self-defense, grappling, etc., all of those seem to be bonuses if your class offers them. That's not to say they aren't encompassed by the umbrella of Taekwondo. But that it's not something that all Taekwondo schools have in common.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

What is the least common denominator for Taekwondo? By that, I mean, what is the core curriculum that, regardless of TKD organization or lineage, regardless of the school's proclivity towards traditional, modern, sport, self-defense, etc., you expect Taekwondo students to know how to do?

From what I can tell, the commonalities between TKD schools are:

• Horse stance punches
• Kicks, including: front, roundhouse/turning, side, axe kick, crescent kick, hook kick, and spinning back and spinning hook kick
• Kicking footwork and combinations
• Forms
• Sparring using kicks to the body

Everything else, including punches, other hand strikes, other targets in sparring, weapons, self-defense, grappling, etc., all of those seem to be bonuses if your class offers them. That's not to say they aren't encompassed by the umbrella of Taekwondo. But that it's not something that all Taekwondo schools have in common.

I like the idea of distilling down what the essence of TKD is across all versions. I think what you have does fit for all versions. I would posit that the essence of power in TKD comes from relaxed rotational power, no matter the version. "Equal and Opposite" "Bull whip" "Towel crack" etc. are all cues/descriptions that I've heard from taekwondoin. Regardless of the nuances between versions, I think it is still a characteristic that is very much part of the identity of TKD.

 

[skribs]

I like the idea of distilling down what the essence of TKD is across all versions. I think what you have does fit for all versions. I would posit that the essence of power in TKD comes from relaxed rotational power, no matter the version. "Equal and Opposite" "Bull whip" "Towel crack" etc. are all cues/descriptions that I've heard from taekwondoin. Regardless of the nuances between versions, I think it is still a characteristic that is very much part of the identity of TKD.

I don't think ITF focuses on rotational power as much as gravitational power. I could be mistaken on that, but I do believe that's the crux of sine wave.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I would love to hear from someone with depth of experience in the matter, but I believe even in sine wave power theory, there is still a root component of rotation. The difference is that the rotation is timed with the sinking of the body.

 

[skribs]

I would love to hear from someone with depth of experience in the matter, but I believe even in sine wave power theory, there is still a root component of rotation. The difference is that the rotation is timed with the sinking of the body.

Luckily I know we have a few on this forum. Hopefully they'll chime in and tell everyone how smart I am whether or not rotation plays a part.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Luckily I know we have a few on this forum. Hopefully they'll chime in and tell everyone how smart I am whether or not rotation plays a part

Yes, I know. GM Weiss comes to mind, as I believe he is the most senior ITF Tae Kwon-Doin on here.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I would love to hear from someone with depth of experience in the matter, but I believe even in sine wave power theory, there is still a root component of rotation. The difference is that the rotation is timed with the sinking of the body.

IMO the focus on Sine Wave (SW) is often misplaced. "Like focusing on a finger pointing to the moon. Focus on the finger and you will miss all that heavenly glory." (Bruce Lee) SW is all bout flexing the knees to let the legs, hips and abdomen generate power for hand techniques. SW is a metaphor for the smooth up and down motion to contrast with "Flat Wave" and "Saw Tooth Wave". The hip will still move in the direction the hand arm travels.(Although General Choi would not like this to be overly exaggerated. ) It also facilitates closed chain / kinetic linking, While the term SW is unique to General Choi and as with many things for pattern performance is exaggerated (Sometimes excessively so) the idea off flexing the knees to facilitate power in the hand techniques is not unique. Watch a video of Mike Tyson and see how he flexes his knees when he punches,

 

[SahBumNimRush]

IMO the focus on Sine Wave (SW) is often misplaced. "Like focusing on a finger pointing to the moon. Focus on the finger and you will miss all that heavenly glory." (Bruce Lee) SW is all bout flexing the knees to let the legs, hips and abdomen generate power for hand techniques. SW is a metaphor for the smooth up and down motion to contrast with "Flat Wave" and "Saw Tooth Wave". The hip will still move in the direction the hand arm travels.(Although General Choi would not like this to be overly exaggerated. ) It also facilitates closed chain / kinetic linking, While the term SW is unique to General Choi and as with many things for pattern performance is exaggerated (Sometimes excessively so) the idea off flexing the knees to facilitate power in the hand techniques is not unique. Watch a video of Mike Tyson and see how he flexes his knees when he punches,

Thank you, that's a helpful explanation GM Weiss. Part of the regional TKD community that my association often interacts with is a group of TKD schools under the Jong Soo Park lineage. I have seen the rotation, the up and down motion, and the knee "wiggle" in their forms. I think there's more common ground in our power generation than there is a difference. But it's the differing details that define the particular schools/styles.

 

[skribs]

IMO the focus on Sine Wave (SW) is often misplaced. "Like focusing on a finger pointing to the moon. Focus on the finger and you will miss all that heavenly glory." (Bruce Lee) SW is all bout flexing the knees to let the legs, hips and abdomen generate power for hand techniques. SW is a metaphor for the smooth up and down motion to contrast with "Flat Wave" and "Saw Tooth Wave". The hip will still move in the direction the hand arm travels.(Although General Choi would not like this to be overly exaggerated. ) It also facilitates closed chain / kinetic linking, While the term SW is unique to General Choi and as with many things for pattern performance is exaggerated (Sometimes excessively so) the idea off flexing the knees to facilitate power in the hand techniques is not unique. Watch a video of Mike Tyson and see how he flexes his knees when he punches,

Would you say sine wave replaces, supplements, or supports body rotation?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

The hip will still move in the direction the hand arm travels.(Although General Choi would not like this to be overly exaggerated. )

Skribs, I believe this to be your answer. Or at least part of it. It definitely doesn't replace it. Speaking from someone who has only watched ITF styles perform, and not having much in the way of formal training, I would imagine it would support body rotation.

 

[Raistlin]

. Watch a video of Mike Tyson and see how he flexes his knees when he punches,

When Mike Tyson punches, he is making contact with his punch as his legs are accelerating through the target. With the SW, the impact of the punch appears to be at the end of the deceleration, therefore the legs are not propelling the punch through the target but doing just the opposite. The legs are decelerating the momentum, therefore taking power away from the punch. The shortest distance between point A and point B is a straight line. If you are creating an arch in your movement, it is going to take you longer to hit your target. In addition, if you are allowing gravity to pull you down before making contact, your technique is too slow. All of your energy should be going into your target to maximize impact. When your energy is moving up and down then much of that energy is going into the floor vs into the target. In theory, I do understand that you could use gravity to gain momentum and redirect "some" of that momentum into your target, but you can generate much more momentum by pushing with your legs as Tyson does, and it is much faster.

Admittedly I have never trained the SW and maybe there is a key component that I am missing, but basic physics suggests it is not a very efficient method of generating power.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

When Mike Tyson punches, he is making contact with his punch as his legs are accelerating through the target. With the SW, the impact of the punch appears to be at the end of the deceleration, therefore the legs are not propelling the punch through the target but doing just the opposite. The legs are decelerating the momentum, therefore taking power away from the punch. The shortest distance between point A and point B is a straight line. If you are creating an arch in your movement, it is going to take you longer to hit your target. In addition, if you are allowing gravity to pull you down before making contact, your technique is too slow. All of your energy should be going into your target to maximize impact. When your energy is moving up and down then much of that energy is going into the floor vs into the target. In theory, I do understand that you could use gravity to gain momentum and redirect "some" of that momentum into your target, but you can generate much more momentum by pushing with your legs as Tyson does, and it is much faster.

Admittedly I have never trained the SW and maybe there is a key component that I am missing, but basic physics suggests it is not a very efficient method of generating power.

Again, it's not how I personally practice it. But at some competitions, ITF practitioners are the majority of competitors/judges. I once asked someone higher ranking in ITF, why we don't see SW in sparring. His reply was that exaggerated SW is a way of generating power, but the trade off is speed. The "wind up" takes time, like a baseball pitch.

I liken that idea to the way my school teaches power generation, so I'll comment from that perspective. We sometimes exaggerate our "wind up/coiling" motion of twisting to feel the "exaggerated unwinding/uncoiling". We see it in breaking too. Imaginary opponents don't hit back. Boards, blocks, etc. don't hit back. When sparring/fighting speed is important, hiding / not telegraphing your movements are important. That doesn't mean it's not a valid or efficient way of generating power. Feeling the exaggerated motion also allows us to hone the technique and generate a similar feel in a smaller twist.

I think it's a similar perspective with the SW?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Would you say sine wave replaces, supplements, or supports body rotation?

Good question. There is a video out there where General Choi is correcting someone and says "Don't twist your body" Note, he does not say "Do not twist your hips." Some latch on to that saying he wanted SW to replace hip twist. IMO he was correcting excessive upper body rotation for 2 fast Punches. He would often correct excessive upper body / shoulder twist. He would still teach about using muscles of hips and abdomen to generate power. I will see if I can find the exact quote in the text. So, IMO definitely doe not replace hip motion. (I declined to use the term "Body Rotation since I am not certain how you define that) As far as Supplement / Support I am not sure how to distinguish those from each other. IMO everything works together. I think it easier to move the hips when you can flex the knees. Alo see post #10 above .

 

[Earl Weiss]

Admittedly I have never trained the SW and maybe there is a key component that I am missing, but basic physics suggests it is not a very efficient method of generating power.

I believe the element you are missing is that the knee is flexed and then locked at the point of impact. "Driving backward, siilar to this

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think it's a similar perspective with the SW?

Definitely. Patterns exaggerate lots of motions. If all you want to do is learn to fight / Spar / Combat / personal protection which all have different goals, Practicing TMA will waste a lot of time and energy. Patterns are but one of 5 elements of the Chang Hon system along with Sparring and Self Defense. You perform techniques differently for Patterns, Sparring, and Self defense . Some years ago I had an article published likening the technical parameter for a pattern technique as a point in the center of sphere. This provided a middle ground / starting point from which you could more easily morph the technique to any number of situations moving outward from center as opposed to having the parameter at the edge of the sphere and having to morph it to fit a situation at the opposite side of the sphere. (I hope that makes sense. )

 

[Earl Weiss]

Per General Choi: Encyclopedia f TK-D Vol II page 20 (1983) THEORY OF POWER CONCENTRATION
....." In conclusion concentration is done in two ways. One is to concentrate every muscle of the body, particularly the bigger muscles around the hip and abdomen (which are theoretically slower than the smaller muscles of other parts of the body) towards the appropriate tool to be used at the precise time; the second way is to concentrate such mobilized muscles onto the opponent's vital spot. This is why the hip and abdomen are jerked slightly before the hands and feet in any action whether it be attack or defence. ".

Certain illustrations help explain what this means.

 

[Earl Weiss]

What is the least common denominator for Taekwondo? By that, I mean, what is the core curriculum that, regardless of TKD organization or lineage, regardless of the school's proclivity towards traditional, modern, sport, self-defense, etc., you expect Taekwondo students to know how to do?

My cynical response is if a student comes from an outside system I expect little to nothing and that is often what I get. First issue is that anyone can claim to be TKD if they have some connection to some Korean who was kicking and punching at some time.

I am often bewildered as to what this person had to learn or do (besides hand over the credit card or write the check) get their platinum belt or whatever.

 

[skribs]

My cynical response is if a student comes from an outside system I expect little to nothing and that is often what I get. First issue is that anyone can claim to be TKD if they have some connection to some Korean who was kicking and punching at some time.

I am often bewildered as to what this person had to learn or do (besides hand over the credit card or write the check) get their platinum belt or whatever.

I've only ever wondered this about one individual.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've only ever wondered this about one individual.

I'll have you know that I earned my platinum belt the hard way - 50 consecutive rounds of rock-paper-scissors with no rest breaks against a series of tough opponents. For the final round I had to do rock-paper-scissors against two opponents at the same time!

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll have you know that I earned my platinum belt the hard way - 50 consecutive rounds of rock-paper-scissors with no rest breaks against a series of tough opponents. For the final round I had to do rock-paper-scissors against two opponents at the same time!

But the hardest part was writing all those zeros on the cheque.