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What is Systema? Systema Self Defense Mega clip
- Thread starter Brian R. VanCise
- Start date
Interesting! I always enjoy watching it but really need to feel it myself some time.
Jack Meower
Blue Belt
Very interesting stuff. There is a new Systema group here that I want to check out.
Gerardo Mendoza S
Yellow Belt
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Hi Jarrod.
Can you tell us what topics, images, movements or any other part of the clip is cuestionable to you?, Maybe we can start an interesting debate.
Gerardo
Is Chad Seibert part of that group? he's amazing.
Systema is one of those things that looks very weird or even fake on video, but once you get on the mat with them, you realize it's actually entirely different than it appears... the body mechanics are pretty different than what most martial artists are doing but they are for real. My few semianrs in SYstema have been very eye-opening and given me some new perspectives on how I do kempo.
sure thing, with all due respect:
while pressure point knockouts work, i have always doubted their effectiveness in fighting since targets move & different individuals may have slightly different placement of pressure points.
the combo that begins with a low kick looks like it is very dependent on the opponent's cooperation.
at around 1:13 he kicks the guy in the back of the ankle & he collapses completely incapacitated.
punching in the diaphram seems to be a staple technique, & while that is a great target it doesn't always end the conflict as it seems to demonstrate in the video.
every low kick knocks the guy's legs out from under him, which isn't usually the case.
in short, it looks overly reliant on pressure points & cooperation for me to trust it personally in a combat or self-defense situation.
that said, many of the gun & knife disarms looked very effective & no-nonsense. also, everything had a flow to it which i can appreciate.
punisher73
Senior Master
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I remember reading that Martin Wheeler of Kenpo had made the switch over to Systema. From your experience what do you feel are systema's advantages? Do you feel that anything in the clip shown is due more to student cooperation (even unconscious) or the technique itself?
An interesting clip
Well, I can't watch the clip at work.
If it is anything like most Systema clisp then:
they are probably moving slowly, 3/4 speed or slower, so it looks cooperative, but really they are just taking it lightly. The systema do-er could probably be clobbering his attacker but instead is just putting his fist on him. That's how they train movement, "guided collisions", disruption of bases etc. They train extensively to anticipate and guide movement, so it seems they are always waiting for you to get somewhere you didn't even know you were going... and there's a FIST there!
Most of us, it seems, when force is applied to the upper body tend to pivot at the waist. A good Systema guy will not bend at the waist, he will move his feet instead. Or they will "wave form" around the force and remain in place. Slippery...
First time I worked out with Systema guys, I saw them falling over for each other and thought "Bull". So I asked "why is he just falling down" and, being such nice guys, instead of asking ME onto the floor to feel it (like any Kempo teacher would LOL) they went harder at each other, and suddenly it wasn't bull... falling into hard strikes to sensitive spots... the drills are aoubt the movement not the striking, so the strikes and the effects are simulated AS PART OF A DRILL. Other drills invovle conditioning to striking (take turns puching each other HARD), conditioning to blades (metal, sharp, rub along your skin, arms, body, face), to chokes ("ok, now we are going to take turns choking each other. See how close you can get to passing out before you tap, explore your fear").
Liek I said I haven't seen the vid but I guess it is probalby showing a movment drill, where strikes are not the important thing to be looking at.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
I am the ultimate cynical weenie head. Have spent the last several years saying, "I will reserve judgement until I get on the mat with one of them" publicly, while privately thinking, "what a crock of absolute crap!".
About 2 weeks ago in Omaha, had the chance to attend a seminar with Chad Siebert, mentioned above by David CC. I was skeptical as he started but shortly found myself laughing quietly at the brilliance and simplicity of it all.
First thing they do, is teach folks how to relax in and out of movements; toi find and release tensions from their bodies that prevent them from moving in a certain manner offensively and defensively. Not so they can be assistive or cooperative, but so they can endure the workouts. Systema practitioners train perceptual sensitivity and mental speed to pick up on subtle changes in balance and spatial location...pressures in small spaces, related to balance and joint placement...both theirs, and the guys they're playing with. It leads to some rather abrupt stops, falls, etc. If they don't take it easy and relax, the abruptnness alone will TKO an uke, while shredding the ligamennts in the locked out joints.
Anyway, this itty bitty 110 lb. dude starts whoopin on a kempo black belt with about a foot-plus of height and 60 pounds on him. The first couple encounters, the kempo kid is bringing it...and getting jerked around in sudden stops by his own skeleton & soft tissues. At one point, he lunged in with a punch. The systema dude appeard to side step it casually, and slide his shin across the kenpodudes shin, while bopping him across the waist and sticking him in the solar plexus with an elbow. The big kenpo kid looked like he jerked to a stop in a car that hit something (lower body stopped cold, upper body kept going until it hit the seatbelt), then collapsed as his knee locked out against the fulcrum of the systema dudes own leg. In fact, he went down hard, looking a little bewildered and in pain.
As this is going on, there's, like, accumulated 150 years worth of martial arts training from various traditional and progressive styles watching him in the form of 5 other instructors, and we all start to chuckle in appreciation. The uke softened up his blows and slowed his attacks for his own benefit; didn't want anymore invisible car accidents.
Training at the beginning, they take it slow. Only as skill develops do they pick up speed and intensity. Know any white belts you throw into a black belt sparring class from the get go, and expect them to match it?
D.
interesting post. like i said, i did notice the flow of movement which was impressive. i assume that was the guided collison you were talking about. however, i don't think you could count on a fully resistant opponent being guided in many of the ways that are demonstrated in this video. please come back to the thread once you're able to take a look at the vid.
jf
OK, snuck a peak at it, and I think there is a lot of playing around in there, but read what "Kembudo" wrote, he hit the nail on the head. if I had to sum up teh experience of working with a Systema guy in 3 words it would definitly be "pain and bewilderment". I don't think these guys are any more (and maybe somehwat less) compliant than any Kenpo bideo you're going to see. But if you get hung up on that you are missing the point. I think there are good lessons to be learend in the (mostly) unique things Systema uses.
Jack Meower
Blue Belt
I don't know whether Chad Seibert is part of the group or not. Is he here in Columbus? The group was started by Steve Webb at the Aikido School of Central Ohio with Vladimir Vasiliev's permission. Apparently Steve has attended quite a few of Vlad's seminars over the past few years.
Anyway, I went to a class tonight. The entire class was devoted to knife work, and was very interesting. I really don't know how to describe it. It seems as though they don't teach techniques, at least initially. They teach movement and sensitivity, and you are supposed to develop techniques from that. Also, breath control is a BIG thing in Systema. You are constantly being reminded to breathe naturally and not 'freeze up' and stop breathing under stress. Overcoming fear of being hit, as well as fear of knives and other weapons also seems to be very important.
Drills are done for both participants - as you are practicing defending against a knife attack, the other person is actually learning how to best attack with a knife, not just sticking it out there for you. They do move slowly in practice most of the time, but that is necessary to learn without serious injury.
That was my take on Systema, from one class anyway, and I really did enjoy it. Feel free to correct anything I've misunderstood or improperly described. I've recently started searching (again) for a place to study and I may do this regularly, though their class schedule will be a bit difficult for me.
well, i was asked what looked questionable to me & i answered respectfully. granted i haven't worked with any systema guys & my opinions may very well change once i do. i'm a pretty open minded cat. still, no one has explained my primary concerns such as people being entirely incapacitated by solar plexus shots & even a light kick to the ankle. i often try risky or low-percentage moves in sport fighting, but when i'm training for self-defense or combat i want techniques that i have no questions about. i'm willing to conceed that it is possible to take somebody out with the techniques described above. but i'm not will to trust my life to it.
when i look at a martial art, i tend to look at it's principles & it's techniques. the principles of systema as described by davidcc & kembodu sound very appealing & realistic. many of the techniques represented in the video do not. of course, i'm very open to changing my mind once i experience them first hand.
jf
when i look at a martial art, i tend to look at it's principles & it's techniques. the principles of systema as described by davidcc & kembodu sound very appealing & realistic. many of the techniques represented in the video do not. of course, i'm very open to changing my mind once i experience them first hand.
jf
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
The only solution, I suspect, is to get on the mat with a qualified systema rep, and see how it feels. I don't know enough to offer any landmarks of representation...i.e., I don't consider an American Kenpoist to offer a representation of kenpo until they are at least green or brown belts in a good school; I don't know what an equivalent in systema would be.
"...to feel is to believe"
D.
Thanks all for making this an interesting thread and drawing me in. I enjoy reading posts from those that have tried Systema and give their honest interpretations of what they felt and learned. I get a chance to hear what other schools are doing as well as one more chance to see the art through others eyes. Thanks guys for asking and sharing.
Love the traditional bells heard in the beginning of the video.
Jarrod wrote:
I also had many questions when I first started and have many different questions today, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking, but those questions are best answered by getting on the floor and training. I do not usually get involved with these kinds of discussions as they are almost never worth the time and energy expanded. Trying to put into words even the most simple of drills (say the simple push-up) could effectively take pages and pages of explanations with no guarantee of understanding when ten minutes in the static push-up can teach hours worth of lessons.
Jarrod it reads like you are watching the video looking at and for techniques. That is natural and I did as well when I saw my first Systema video many years ago. I thought it rubbish yet the guy who (one of my instructors at the time)loaned me the tape was a 6th Dan in Aikido and thought it was very worthwhile, I borrowed the tape and took it to another instructor that I had who was very old school British gentleman who has done serious EP work all around world and at that time in our lives he was doing security for the Hollywood types that were around (a couple of TV shows had hired him for security for the stars of the shows, Northern Exposure was one of them) He also had great things to say about the movement. That was enough for me so I started to look for instruction and have been blessed to have found it.
One of the things that many find confusing about viewing Systema is the confusion in training styles. Many styles teach using the model if A happens do B and in order to have C happen do D. Systema does not train that way, instead we spend the time training multiple attributes with every drill. It really is a different way of training and learning than most are used to and that makes conversations like this one difficult. That said I will try to answer a few of your questions. I apologize in advance as I have to get on the road for work and only have a few minutes available. Please understand that the rush may make me sound a bit short or insulting. It is not meant that way.
http://kansascitysystema.com/
Alan is a good guy, please tell him I said hello and that it has been much too long since we had a chance to train together.
There are also groups in Missouri.
really? What techniques in your opinion work 100% of the time?
Hitting each other is in fact a stable of Systema training. We learn how to hit and how to get over the fear of being hit by hitting each other hard and often, not by hitting heavy bags or pads. There is no specific targeting taught and of course in a fight you should be willing, ready and able to hit more than once. That said sometimes hitting somebody more than once gives them courage while hitting somebody once very well and deep, then giving them a second or two to enjoy and experience their pain will rob your opponent of the will to continue the conflict. Cases vary and a person has to trust their judgment on what their opponent needs.
Watch it again Jarrod, it appears to me that Vladimir kicks both ankles and it looks like he targeted the Achilles tendon on both ankles, by hitting both ankes the weight shifts after the first kick to the leg that has not yet been damaged loading the second tendon and making it much more painful. If the tendons are hit they constrict and bind taking the person down by biomechanical failure. I might be wrong I only had time to look at it twice dang video was taking forever to download. On the second viewing it also appears that Vladimirs right arm may also be doing some work on Nick. We train hard on hiding the work taking pride in being able to do take downs or other work in a crowd and have nobody being able to see or say what happened.
I cannot comment about whether pressure points work or not as we do not train using pressure points for combat. We do use some pain spots for massage and healing work.
Thanks again
Warmest Regards
Brian King
Love the traditional bells heard in the beginning of the video.
Jarrod wrote:
I also had many questions when I first started and have many different questions today, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking, but those questions are best answered by getting on the floor and training. I do not usually get involved with these kinds of discussions as they are almost never worth the time and energy expanded. Trying to put into words even the most simple of drills (say the simple push-up) could effectively take pages and pages of explanations with no guarantee of understanding when ten minutes in the static push-up can teach hours worth of lessons.
Jarrod it reads like you are watching the video looking at and for techniques. That is natural and I did as well when I saw my first Systema video many years ago. I thought it rubbish yet the guy who (one of my instructors at the time)loaned me the tape was a 6th Dan in Aikido and thought it was very worthwhile, I borrowed the tape and took it to another instructor that I had who was very old school British gentleman who has done serious EP work all around world and at that time in our lives he was doing security for the Hollywood types that were around (a couple of TV shows had hired him for security for the stars of the shows, Northern Exposure was one of them) He also had great things to say about the movement. That was enough for me so I started to look for instruction and have been blessed to have found it.
One of the things that many find confusing about viewing Systema is the confusion in training styles. Many styles teach using the model if A happens do B and in order to have C happen do D. Systema does not train that way, instead we spend the time training multiple attributes with every drill. It really is a different way of training and learning than most are used to and that makes conversations like this one difficult. That said I will try to answer a few of your questions. I apologize in advance as I have to get on the road for work and only have a few minutes available. Please understand that the rush may make me sound a bit short or insulting. It is not meant that way.
http://kansascitysystema.com/
Alan is a good guy, please tell him I said hello and that it has been much too long since we had a chance to train together.
There are also groups in Missouri.
really? What techniques in your opinion work 100% of the time?
Hitting each other is in fact a stable of Systema training. We learn how to hit and how to get over the fear of being hit by hitting each other hard and often, not by hitting heavy bags or pads. There is no specific targeting taught and of course in a fight you should be willing, ready and able to hit more than once. That said sometimes hitting somebody more than once gives them courage while hitting somebody once very well and deep, then giving them a second or two to enjoy and experience their pain will rob your opponent of the will to continue the conflict. Cases vary and a person has to trust their judgment on what their opponent needs.
Watch it again Jarrod, it appears to me that Vladimir kicks both ankles and it looks like he targeted the Achilles tendon on both ankles, by hitting both ankes the weight shifts after the first kick to the leg that has not yet been damaged loading the second tendon and making it much more painful. If the tendons are hit they constrict and bind taking the person down by biomechanical failure. I might be wrong I only had time to look at it twice dang video was taking forever to download. On the second viewing it also appears that Vladimirs right arm may also be doing some work on Nick. We train hard on hiding the work taking pride in being able to do take downs or other work in a crowd and have nobody being able to see or say what happened.
I cannot comment about whether pressure points work or not as we do not train using pressure points for combat. We do use some pain spots for massage and healing work.
Thanks again
Warmest Regards
Brian King
well, it's hard to pick up much else when watching a video of a system you have little knowledge of with no commentary attached.
no worries, you came off rather respectful.
i heard there was a systema program coming to the area, i will visit if i get a chance or hear of a seminar. unfortunately, i work 3 jobs at the moment & live in bonner springs, pretty much the farthest kc 'burb from blue springs.
none; i never said anything worked 100% of the time. however, some techniques & targets work more often than others. in the video, they spent a lot of time punching people in the solar plexus, which is a dandy target, but i wouldn't trust my life to somebody dropping from it as demonstrated in the video. this is because i have occasionally run into a fighter who can take well placed body shots & keep coming. they may get tired in the later rounds, but that doesn't really relate to the purpose of systema as i understand it.
that's cool. like i said, i was asked to respond to what i saw in the video, & that video makes up about 90% of my knowledge of systema. which is to say, i don't know much about it at all.
you may be right; i only viewed it once & vladimir is very quick. still, this is another technique that strikes me as semi-reliable based on the fact that i have been struck in the achilles tendon & have struck others in the achilles tendon, & in my experience sometimes the ankle can no longer sustain weight, sometimes it can.
at one point in the video, vladimir strikes the uke twice in the arm with a knife hand, then once in the side of the neck. the uke then drops apparently unconscious. i assumed this was a pressure point attack since it looked like other pressure point attacks i had seen, but i could be wrong.
all the best,
jf
Jarrod,
Thanks for the good points of discussion. Some things to consider, Systema does not train pressure point knock outs. Hence what you are seeing is not what you think you are seeing.
Systema strikes go 'into' the body and take a heavy toll. For those that do not know what I mean by 'into' the body it is most likely because they have never experienced this type of strike before. These strikes are very effective as they tend to destroy the other person's awareness and will. Just something that needs to be felt first hand to understand.
As for diaphram placement if you saw some of the other stuff you would most likely say that isn't possible. Hence it is best to put together a video that people can at least understand some of it.
As for the low kicks always working.......it is a demonstration video. Are you suggesting you would edit a video with scenes not working? Does that make sense? I am not trying to be cheeky but really think about the context. Additionally, when those low kicks are done by Vlad or the other top guys, they almost always DO WORK as they are using the same principles that create the deep strikes. Having been on the receiving end of a number of these my first hand experience gives me a different perspective. This is not to say I can do them all that well, I cannot, but I am working and improving.
Take care,
Mark J.
erich
Yellow Belt
I was going to make these points but Mark beat me to it.
The majority of the footage above is of the very top guys in systema. They are displaying mad skills. I could spend an hour kicking your achilles tendons and not get the same reaction. Vladimir will get that reaction, or if he doesn't he will do something else. As Brian says, it is not a technique to be learned and imitated, instead it is spontaneous action based on the situation.
That is why I love to train with him and his people.
