"Selling" Systema

[KyleShort]

No I don't mean selling rank or any of the other negative conotations of selling in the martial arts. To a degree, every martial art sells (promotes) itself through video clips on the web. I see this as a problem area for Systema.

I, like many other martial artists, look at the clips I see of Systema and think "What a joke!" "He barely tapped the guy and he crumpled...it would not happen like that in real life." Of course I have never experienced Systema in person and I know that the response to this thread will be to tell me to go experience it first hand. But that is not the point of this. The real question that I have is, do Systema practitioners see that their art, at least on video, looks very unrealistic and almost coreographed?...how do they over come this when exposing Systema to the uneducated public, with out hands on demonstration?

Perhaps I have already answered my question because I am already sold by virtue of curiosity. I cannot wait to go to the San Francisco seminar to get a feel for what it really is. I for one recognize that I have only learned a few ways to train, not all of the ways. I also see that I may very well be pleasantly suprised and become a Systema practicioner myself =)

Thanks

 

[Arthur]

It is perhaps easier for you to answer this question than one of us. Let us assume for a minute that what you see on video is completely real. Other than actual hands on demonstration, how do we convince you?

I’m not sure any art really convinces people of anything through video. Video isn’t a convincer; it’s a window to see what some of the things you might do while studying a given art are. In theory it is a window into the practices of the art. If I taught Wing Chun I might put up a video of a solo form, if I taught a FMA I might put up a video of a flow drill, if I taught Model Mugging I might show someone kicking the groin of a cumbersome and well padded training partner. It is very rare (if not unknown) for the practitioners of an art to place video of actual fights online. After all it would be a legal nightmare.

The majority of the RMA clips on the web are of a similar nature. They are of various training practices. I don’t see people criticizing Wing Chun clips for not having an opponent fighting back when they show solo forms, I don’t see people criticizing FMA clips for partaking in “unrealistic cooperative practice” when showing flow drills. For some reason however, it seems that people assume every RMA clip is supposed to be our claim of an actual street situation. Seems a bit unfair to me, but heck fair isn’t really part of life. Unfairness doesn’t really bother me that much.

What does bother me is, damning someone for being successful. If you really break down the basic criticism you hear of RMA on the web, it comes down to this. “That stuff must be fake, because it seems to work!” That line of reasoning, is a bit of a thorn in our sides, but not nearly as damaging to us as it is to those who make the actual statement.. If this is the rational that condemns our art, then the inverse postulate arises as well… “our art is good, because it doesn’t work well”.

In the small scheme, this line of reasoning causes me some occasional business grief, and some personal frustration, but in the large scheme of things, I find this line of reason to be quite disheartening. For as people reason about there martial art, they are likely to reason about politics, relationships and other more important matters, and that is truly frightening.

So if video clips aren’t capable of being convincers, what are they good for? Well PT Barnum always said there is no such thing as bad publicity. There are going to be plenty of people who will see a clip and think its too good to be true. Out of those people, some will hope it is possible that something can be like that, and there are those that will hope there can’t. The latter will stay home; the former will come and investigate a hands-on situation.

I’d rather have my school filled with those that can embrace hope, than those that fear it.

Arthur

 

[Zitterbacke]

It is often said that Systema has the worst marketing of all MAs. And I think there is some truth in it. Watching videos without knowing the context is misleading. But who is to blame? The one who watches or the one that offers the videos (especially on the net)?
When I see someone attack at a relativ slow speed I'm inclined to doubt wether it will work in reality. Since many don't understand this as the training mode which prevents injuries and optimizes "body-consciousness" they take it for unrealistic.
I haven't seen commercial videos yet. And therefore cannot estimate their effect on the beholder. But much which is to be seen while slow sparring must undoubtedly look weird.

 

[Yakov]

Arthur
Imho,
in order for techniques that you practice to work in real life, where your opponent really tries to hit you, is to be prepaired for this situations.
But when your practice consist only of a theory you wil never actualy learn the move.
So to realy prepare yourself you have to spare (or have an actualy friendly combat where each opponent tries to actualy HIT another)
they might wear protective gear, they might have rules prohibiting from hitting in the face\groing\what ever
but they have to try to HIT each other.

As far as i've seen in systema classes you don't have this.

The only thing that happend is you show the way the hit gonna go and not actualy hit.

maybe i'm wrong and you do have actualy practice?

anyways if you guys have some clips of systema please post them here i would love to see them.

---------------------
Yakov,
www.nysambo.com

 

[jellyman]

"As far as i've seen in systema classes you don't have this."

How many classes have you gone to?

Arthur's site has a clip of him hitting someone. Guy collapses. Nobody believes it. What do you do? Hit more people, I guess.

Arthur's site has clip of him beating someone bigger trying to wrestle him. Guy gets dominated. Nobody believes it. What do you do? Wrestle more people, I guess.

I put up a clip of a guy winning a sport fight. Nobody believes he is systema, even though I point out material from tapes actually used in the fight, and even though he is certified to teach now, and in fact runs a club. What can you do? Invite people to your classes, I guess.

Systema does not look like a lot of other MA's. So of course people who practice one of these others will feel offended that what they do is not in evidence, or cling like limpets to anything they see as recognizable. Thus "The only good stuff is the stuff we already do - who needs it?".

The clips I post are for other systema people. If you are not a systema person and you take offense to them, well frankly I don't care. Vlad posts clips for his people too. And does it turn away students? Well, if it does it's a good thing, because his club is very popular as it is - running out of room, in fact. Not to mention the amount of time he spends flying around the world doing seminars - but of course, nobody will believe that either... :idunno:

As for this theory business, well all I know is I get guys with rank in other styles walking into my place to learn, many of whom don't get the slow sparring game at all, and just GO. This has not been an issue, really. Of course, I am not in the business of making movies, I am too busy having fun.

But there is some other clips on my web site (see my profile) and if you go through the affiliates web sites as listed on Vladimir's page, you will see more. Some of them are pretty fast-paced.

But the best way is to simply ask to spar the instructor.

[edit - to see my website, click my profile, there is a drop-down menu]

 

[Yakov]

Thank you very much for clips
they are very interesting but very strange though
in the first clip is it a practice of rolls?
if not y then the guy rolls every time the second guy lifts his hand?

i like the last one very interesing.

on Arthur's page
if under guys collpases you mean when he got hit in sollar point (or whatever this point called) but that will happend to ANYONE if you hit him in this point
when i was 7 years old everyone in our yard knew that.

They guys who was trying to wrestle with Arthur didn't wrestle.
he didn't even try.

about the guy who won the fight i have only one question:
you have to show second by second where he used systema and where he did not
how about just show a fight with SYSTEMA only?
someone who trained systema won a fight, he doesn't have to start a fight just win it.
as someone said in one of the posts
systema gave you a good golf swing but you still have to know how to play golf

systema showed you what you can do in theory but you still have to learn how to do it.
and the best way to learn is PRACTICE!

P.S. I didn't train systema, but i've seen alot of their classes
for a year i think
P.P.S. I do respect all of the teachers there they all practiced alot (and i mean practiced)

----------
Yakov,
www.nysambo.com

 

[jellyman]

"They guys who was trying to wrestle with Arthur didn't wrestle.
he didn't even try. "

How do you know this? The guy is not a student, according his own testimony he drove 8 hours and he really did try. Are you suggesting that Arthur was too succesful for you to believe, ie made it look too easy? Well, you know there's only one way to find out...

'if not y then the guy rolls every time the second guy lifts his hand?'

He knows if contact is made, he will be offbalanced or take a strike, so he seeks to escape on his own terms. I have a little article posted on my web site abou that clip, why not read it?

"about the guy who won the fight i have only one question:
you have to show second by second where he used systema and where he did not
how about just show a fight with SYSTEMA only?"

He was at this point cross-training in systema for a year, so to say it was all systema would be intellectually dishonest. He is the same guy on the last clip, btw, but after 5 years and a steady shedding of much of what he did before and in fact a complete revamp of how he views grappling, I feel more it is more honest now to call that systema.

'someone who trained systema won a fight, he doesn't have to start a fight just win it."

If you look at Ken Good's site, you will find some police camera footage of guys trained by him using systema on the street. Is this what you wanted?

"as someone said in one of the posts
systema gave you a good golf swing but you still have to know how to play golf"

Yes, that was me who said that. But you misinterpret - I said if I swing the club, I am playing golf. If I do MMA, I am doing MMA - it's the point of the excercise. If I was to do systema (as I see it) in an MMA event, it would be 1) do something (throw or whatever) 2) leave the ring while he is recovering. The minute I go back to finish him off, it's not really systema anymore. The purpose has changed. I am playing golf.

 

[jellyman]

"how about just show a fight with SYSTEMA only?"

Life is too short to be mucking about with cameras. The last clip was from a seminar in which all volunteers were invited to go hard. You find the last clip interesting - do you feel it was cooperative in any way? Just straightforward stuff, as far as I can see

 

[jellyman]

"you have to show second by second where he used systema and where he did not"

Actually, he used it throughout, but these were the objectively observable things he used. How am I going to show relaxation, breathing, movement, and form as distinct on video - you can't feel relaxation, see breath, and everyone moves, and everyone stands up...

 

[Jackal]

"do Systema practitioners see that their art, at least on video, looks very unrealistic and almost choreographed?"

Hell, I thought it was choreographed when I had my first exposure in person. Having had over a decade of hard contact, MMA training, I saw Vladimir dropping people with feather-light touches. I said to myself, “I know what it takes to make a man fall down. That isn’t even possible. Physics just says ‘NO’.” I went up to Vladimir and said, “Do it to me.”

Turned out I didn’t know **** about physics or about what it took to make a man fall down.

"how do they over come this when exposing Systema to the uneducated public, with out hands on demonstration?"

Didn’t think it was a concern. If people want knowledge, they'll search for it. When I look at the videos, It’s obvious why it works because now I know what I’m looking at and what to look for. It just doesn’t fit the model of what some people consider “reality”.

If I've learned one thing on the path, it's that conventional wisdom, isn't.

 

[Yakov]

You can see when person is trying to do something or when he just put his arms around and rests.
if you don't see it then either you never wrestled or something wrong with me.
All Arthur did is move away from him and he didn't follow couple of times he just fell for no reason.

In my expirinece person standing person is much faster then person on the ground so by rolling away you open your back.
if the guy would continue to attack he would just kick the rolling person.

Would you mind givving me the link to Ken Good's site?

Ok let's use your new example
person is trying to kick the bejessoous out of you on the street.
not just punch and leave
but hit you untill your not breathing or something.

unless he is drunk and moves very slow there is not a big chance you can evade his attacks.
or he grips you and belive me most of the time he will grab you.
Ask anyone who participated in fights ask even Vladimir or Michael they was in army they know what it is.

Real opponent and the guys who you practice with in slow motion have a huge gap in between.

If you really want to be prepared go to the ring once in a while with a friend, put on the gloves and go.
or ask someone from your class to stay after and spare a little bit you will feel the difference
but then again if you add sparing to systema you'll get sambo.
--------------
Yakov,
www.nysambo.com

 

[jellyman]

"person is trying to kick the bejessoous out of you on the street.
not just punch and leave
but hit you untill your not breathing or something."

Yes? I didn't say continuous attacks don't happen. Where did you get this impression? My point is that simply speaking, escape is not an option in the ring, or rather it is an option, but it's called 'giving up'.

"In my expirinece person standing person is much faster then person on the ground so by rolling away you open your back.
if the guy would continue to attack he would just kick the rolling person."

We certainly train with people kicking at you as you roll. Often 3 at a time.

"Would you mind givving me the link to Ken Good's site?"

He is listed on Vladimir's affiliates page.

"unless he is drunk and moves very slow there is not a big chance you can evade his attacks."

You think evasion is impossible? Then you NEED to spar with Vladimir or Mikhail. You don't know what possible is.

"or he grips you and belive me most of the time he will grab you.
Ask anyone who participated in fights ask even Vladimir or Michael they was in army they know what it is."

Again, this assumption that systema = no sparring, or slow only.

Do you think the guy in the JJJ clip cannot spar? Do you think he trains unrealistically? He is the fellow I train with.

"Real opponent and the guys who you practice with in slow motion have a huge gap in between."

Again, this assumption that it is all slow motion. I don't know what they do in whatever club you visit, but in Toronto and my club in Hamilton, the tempo varies greatly. Slow is to learn, fast is to polish.

"If you really want to be prepared go to the ring once in a while with a friend, put on the gloves and go."

Again, this assumption that systema = no sparring, or slow only.

Do you think the guy in the JJJ clip cannot spar? Do you think he trains unrealistically? How do you think he got those skills? We spar as realistically now as we did when he trained for that fight.

"or ask someone from your class to stay after and spare a little bit you will feel the difference
but then again if you add sparing to systema you'll get sambo."

You are assuming much, but I don't recall ever seeing Borba or Buza strikes in SAMBO, or for that matter lock-assisted throws. Perhaps this is the point of all this? That systema is "nothing special" and that Sambo is "real"?

Again: go and spar an instructor.

What is most amazing is that you ignore what I said before - new guys with training come to my club all the time and go hard. Yet they are handled, not just by me or Furtry, but all of us.

I think perhaps it is better if you talk authoritatively about what you know. Systema is not one of these things.

 

[Furtry]

All I see is "Systema blha blha blha MMA blhablhabla slow/not real blha blha compete blha blha doesn't work."
Translation; <Can you use it to compete, if not, it's not real>

To those I say life isn’t a sport. And I personally don’t care what you think, as you’re not standing in front of me. Translation <walk the walk. Cause anybody can talk.>

 

[RobP]

I had a similar discussion on another board recently along similar lines. I reffered to a clip on our site at www.systemauk.com which features Mikhail working with a very experienced MMA guy. The response? "It's all staged". What can you say?

 

[Furtry]

I had a similar discussion on another board recently along similar lines. I reffered to a clip on our site at www.systemauk.com which features Mikhail working with a very experienced MMA guy. The response? "It's all staged". What can you say?

Which clip RobP?

 

[jellyman]

I should add, Ken's site has been rearranged, I will post the link to it when I get home.

Furtry's the guy in the JJJ competition, and the guy showing mount escape, btw.

Please tell him how unrealistic he is

And then show us a similar video with you, and tell us how it is SAMBO, as opposed to Judo, wrestling, kickboxing, or BJJ... Please refrain from isolating any movements in the video and then referring to some compendium of SAMBO throws or locks, or some tehcnical detail that distinguishes it from the above mentioned arts, as then it's not ALL SAMBO, just little bits of SAMBO.

[edit - then we will make comments from the bleachers about how it wouldn't work on us, or it is obvious you paid him to let yuo win, or some other folderol...]

 

[KyleShort]

Thanks a ton to all of the participants of this thread. I am pleased that you have all seen past what could be construed as a slander in my post, and instead see it for what it is...an exploratory question.

The genesis of my question, is that after looking at the videos on the net, I feel bad for Systema. I say this in the sense that I know how the general public must respond to such videos. I liken it to the Kyushu Kitsu and Fa Jing. The first video I saw had Vladimir parrying a knife thrust with his shoulder and then "tapping" the assailant in the mid section to send him flipping through the air. Naturally, as an experienced MAist (and recent Escrimador) I scoffed at what I saw.

Before I move on with this post let me say that I think my original question has been answered...there does not appear to be a way to over come the issue. Systema seems to be one of those arts that you simply must experience to understand/believe/trust (what ever else it may be called).

For me, the videos have sparked a curiosity in me, which is why I AM seeking out Systema instruction. When I look at Systema I see a lot of what seems to me to be hogwash, but at the same time something deep inside me tickles and says, "But that's how I move." -- so is there something to it that I am not allowing myself to see?

I think though, that I am most interested because of the extensive training I have in Bujinkan. Hmm...I think I will start another thread about this =)

 

[jellyman]

thank you for not taking my ill-humour too badly

 

[WillFightForBeer]

Since I can finally call myself a Systema student (yeah, one seminar does that to you), maybe I can give some input from a Neophyte. From what I have seen, Systema takes a very practical approach to what can be considered the supernatural. If you don't believe what you see in the videos or the demonstrations, then to each his own, I'd suppose. I don't think Systema is actively seeking students when I'm sure that everyone feels fine with the amount of people involved right now.

Commercialization=Mcdojoization.

By watering down the videos to make them "look practical" you take away from the actual System. Why change it at all?

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

".....they might wear protective gear, they might have rules prohibiting from hitting in the face\groing\what ever
but they have to try to HIT each other.

As far as i've seen in systema classes you don't have this."

Ahhh, what classes have you been too? None would be my guess from the comment above. I can rarely remember a Systema class that I didn't get hit, frequently and regularly. 'Systema practice doesn't involve hitting'....what utter nonsense.

mark