"Selling" Systema

[Brenwulv]

"They guys who was trying to wrestle with Arthur didn't wrestle.
he didn't even try. "

How do you know this? The guy is not a student, according his own testimony he drove 8 hours and he really did try. Are you suggesting that Arthur was too succesful for you to believe, ie made it look too easy? Well, you know there's only one way to find out...

He may have driven a while and really did try, but it doesn't mean he knew anything about what he was trying to do. Simply bad form all around, no real technique at all(on the part of the wrestler).

Now, I'm in no way discrediting the skills and abilities of those who train in systema. I've seen things that make me wonder, but like has been said already, it's all in experiencing it, and I have not.

However, I have wrestled, and that guy is a poor example to point to and say, "Look, it works...."

Just my thoughts.

Joel

 

[jellyman]

So now, it can't be a resisting larger opponent, it has to be a technical resisting larger opponent... [edit - and I should add, isn't the point of martial skill supposed to be the ability to beat people bigger than yourself through superior skill? Now we hear the complaint that the other guy had less skill... Well, yes. So where did the smaller guy acquire his better skill?]

You want to see maybe Alexander Karelin? How technical are we talking here? [edit - Do you think Royce Gracie could beat Karelin gi-less and standing? If Royce can't do it, where does that leave BJJ? And if he can do it, where does that leave wrestling?]

Response in systema is dictated by action. [edit - that's why stuff works - because it's not a pre-fab response, but a real-time response to what's happening. You say "What if it was different?" Well, the response should obviously be different. Different how? Well, what's different about the attack?]

 

[RobP]

Here's another clip from our site. This is Val Riazanov with Mikhail. Val was a KGB sombo champion and part of Russia's Olympic judo squad.

http://www.systemauk.com/video/cammv1.mpg

I should be posting some more clips from MR's recent London seminar later today.

 

[Yakov]

"Vladimir is not a sambist but i belive he was in Special opsand i might be wrong but i think they learn Sambo."

Or Systema.

They teach systema in Russia?

There's a good chance you just haven't observed any "hard" or "short" work performed in a class.

that's try never seen this.

Or do your friends have "NO TARINING" style competitions to show how effective they are.

okey i don't mind but probably they would...
the point of no training is that there is no training
and competition is a kind of training no?

I thought so too, but I asked him, and he has no formal background in sambo. Nor is this mentioned in his interviews. So in his case no. The fact is Rupokashni Boi varies from unit to unit.

Interesting i thought(based on the books i've read) that starting 1923 Combat Sambo is teached in russian spesial forces and rukopashnii boi iz one of names for combat part of sambo. But i never actualy was in special forces i couldn't say.

personally have formally studied/achieved rank in boxing, japanse jujutsu, judo, boxing, and karate, over the cumulative span of 10 years, the last 6 steady (i e in sucession). I have been doing systema for 5 since all that

That's interesting do many people cross-train in systema?

 

[Furtry]

the point of no training is that there is no training
and competition is a kind of training no?

I always looked at it as a way of culminating and testing the techniques I've developed. That being said, the major draw back to competition are the rules. If you make the rules specific enough a gay cross-dressing midget can be the world combat champion. (For all you PC folks, I'm being sarcastic ) An example from personal experience; 1990 Freestyle (Greco-Roman) wrestling rules allowed a continues front head and arm roll for a score of 2 point exposure every time. It was my favorite technique, I won half of my matches by using it. Knocked/choked allot of people out with it %-} . The team used to call it the 'Furtry where am I award?' because after they woke up they would ask "where am I?". Next season the technique became disallowed to be used for more than one turn. Once you scored with it you had to move to something else. I still held on till I would choke the guy out and then pin him. Then they said you were only allowed to use with in 5 seconds of hook up. Which basically made the technique useless and obsolete. Get my point regarding competitions. This was INTERNATIONAL competition by the way. Do you know how many Europeans suddenly couldn't win a match to save their life?
As for RMA/Systema and why I'm so passionate about it, NO RULES of combat only survival.
Now go look at ROSS because I heard Sonnan is training MMA fighters, maybe that's what you people need to buy.

 

[RobP]

Jelly - we visited the Vityaz base last summer and saw some of their selection process going on as well as getting some training ourselves. That unit is trained primarily in combat sombo. H2H isn't a major thing with them as they are primarily shock / assualt troops (with, we were told a life expectancy of around 15 min on a battlefield...)

Systema is taught in Russia. We spent a week training in Moscow. Fellow participants included officers from various branches of Spetsnaz. There a a couple of clips from that week at
http://www.systemauk.com/video2.htm

I've also posted some clips from Mikahil's recent London workshop there too.

 

[jellyman]

"They teach systema in Russia?"

Yep, there's a trip to Moscow every year, where you get to meet Mikhail's students, civilian and also military, depending on what their jobs are demanding. He has very accomplished students on both sides of that coin. Even his very small, young students can handle a typical adult. I got thrown around by a 15 yo girl, and she was so good, I feel no shame in that fact. In addition to Mikhail, there are people who also teach who acknowledge him as a teacher, and some who teach who do not, but should.

Some people in systema cross-train, some do not. Some have MA experience, and some have no MA experience. It is not neccessary, imo, to do other stuff, but any experience is better than none. No, before you ask, the guys with previous experience do not inevitbaly overwhelm the guys who started with none. As I said before, in my experience, the most troublesome are the ones doing systema the longest.

 

[jellyman]

Some confuision

SAMBO means "defense without weapons"

rupokashni Boi means "Hand to Hand fighting"

SAMBO is a style of Rupokashni Boi, but any combatative can be a Rupokshni Boi.

 

[Jackal]

They teach systema in Russia?

Not widely, but yes.

that's try never seen this.

Hmm. Each individual instructor has their own preferred method of teaching. I, myself, prefer brutal work, but then again I'm still young and have a lot of fire and ego to contend with. I know teacher of the classes you've most likely been watching and I believe he prefers softer work with more emphasis on sensitivity, based on his internal arts background before Systema. I've witnessed his teaching style and enjoyed it.

That's interesting do many people cross-train in systema?

Most people in Systema have cross trained before they found Systema. After Systema, all the holes most of us were trying to fill were filled so there's little reason to cross train other than enjoying the camaraderie of other stylists.

 

[jellyman]

"and competition is a kind of training no? "

I disagree.

Competition is a means to show the end-product of training.

Do you think Muy Thai people do nothing but full contact? Do you think judoka only do shiai? MT people do a lot of slow sparring, bag work, pad work. Judo people do kata, uchi-komi, and randori...

 

[Brenwulv]

So now, it can't be a resisting larger opponent, it has to be a technical resisting larger opponent... [edit - and I should add, isn't the point of martial skill supposed to be the ability to beat people bigger than yourself through superior skill? Now we hear the complaint that the other guy had less skill... Well, yes. So where did the smaller guy acquire his better skill?]

You want to see maybe Alexander Karelin? How technical are we talking here? [edit - Do you think Royce Gracie could beat Karelin gi-less and standing? If Royce can't do it, where does that leave BJJ? And if he can do it, where does that leave wrestling?]

Response in systema is dictated by action. [edit - that's why stuff works - because it's not a pre-fab response, but a real-time response to what's happening. You say "What if it was different?" Well, the response should obviously be different. Different how? Well, what's different about the attack?]

Hold on a sec. As I said, I've no grudge against systema because I haven't experienced it. I didn't say anything bad about the systema response. Smaller beats larger, you respond to what is presented, dictated by action, fine, sounds good, I agree.

Perhaps I misread, but someone (I thought) said, 'look, here's systema beating a wrestler....'

My thought is that the guy is not a wrestler, and if he is, he's a terrible wrestler (in the context of the things he was attempting to do). That is all I am saying. If you are going to point to this clip, just don't call the guy a wrestler, because he's not. (Again, perhaps I misread something along the way and no one said this. If so, my appologies)

That's my opinion, take it as you will. I've no vested interest in all this and I'm not trying to criticize systema at all, really I'm not. Just offering another view.

Joel

 

[jellyman]

Fair enough then. The way 'wrestle' is used in my area basically means 'trying to take to the ground without hitting and getting a pin' or something like that. Didn't mean he was a college wrestler.

 

[KyleShort]

I have to say that I agree that the tactics used by the knife wielder were very poor. Holding the blade the in a half chambered position just above chest height, he clearly expressed his intentions and telegaphed his motions. When it came time to strike, he delivered a very akward lunge at relatively low speed (for a blade). He would have been much better served executing some fast, ficking strikes to the defender's lead hand followed by some jabs to the head and abdomen...all the while he should heve been moving. Also, he was fully focused on the attack and didn't seem to consider using his checking hand for defense.

In my experience (been stabbed once and encountered a knife 3 times in my life) plus my observation of other's experiences, his knife techniques were not indicative of any sort of skill. Trained knifers move very fast and protect their weapon. Untrained knifers who are experienced at attacking with the knife (sounds counterintuitive) keep their knife hidden and attack on hidden lines. I am not in a position to question NYCRonin's personal experience as an LEO, but the Riker Ryu technique seems questionable.

Now there is no way to judge the quality of the Systema as a whole based on the Riker Ryu attack. As far as I am concerned, the Systema response was absolutely top notch and perfect for the attack delivered. With a different attack, I am sure the Systema reponse would have also been different.

 

[Brenwulv]

Fair enough then. The way 'wrestle' is used in my area basically means 'trying to take to the ground without hitting and getting a pin' or something like that. Didn't mean he was a college wrestler.

Okay Now I know.

Joel

 

[Furtry]

Kyle, I don't get it. First you complain that it's to slow, then there are no realistic clips of Systema. Then, when you get one, you complain the attacker is not a knife fighter. What next?... no special effects like a fire ball when attacked at full speed by a trained knife fighter with a Jedi light saber.

Dude, like I said before if you're not interested then so be it. But don't be rude about it. Or I'll show up where you ever you are just so I can sit in the bleachers and yell that your **** doesn't work and you guys are a bunch of pansies. But we both understand that if I did that you wouldn’t let me sit in the bleachers, would you?
So here it is, get out of the bleachers and try it for your self. Hell come to my place and if you can show me how ineffective my training has been I’ll the first to admit it.

 

[Clive]

:lurk:

 

[NYCRonin]

That particular attack has been one I have used many times to get at people who, through their own training and stated experience -- believe themselves to be accomplished 'knife experts'. I guess the monday morning quarterback will always believe he can do better than those who were on the field when the ball was actually thrown. MR handled that attack cold. Could I have danced abit and tried to cut his hand or some other tactic -- sure, but that had already been done at that training opportunity by a gentleman with many years of FMA training -- and he had zero success. I went with something that I have seen the bloody results of, many times; on Rikers -- done by guys who have real experience in sliceing and diceing people up. Until you know what blood smells like, until you have washed the blood of an attacker, and your own; out of your work uniform more than once -- and you go to work daily not knowing if and when it will happen again -- then I am sorry but I will consider my personal experiences abit more valid than someone who got stabbed once and uses a short clip to judge my efficiency with a blade. I hold my own, to say the least...and will not even attempt to judge anothers skill level from clips. That is all I will bother to comment about my 'lack of skill', Mr. Short -- only actually facing me with a blade has validity -- and I doubt I will ever be given the opportunity to convince you otherwise.

I never liked vid clips because while they do give a view of some work done -- our armchair quarterbacks always believe they would have done so much better. Like dry land swimmers who never test the waters we swim in.

I didnt even want to get into this theoretical discussion -- but since that clip found its way in, I had no other choice.

I will let it go by simply stating: forget trying to analyse clips or vids and get into the water yourself -- THEN you can develop an opinion based on experience not on theory, guesswork or 'it appears to me...' -- all of which are the opinions of the armchair athelete and lack any real validity at all.

Better yet, just cluck your tongue at your own perceived superiority and skill and dont bother to investigate, in person; at all -- it will preserve ones secure niche and keep the training floor less crowded for people like me. Its already too crowded with people who are involved in violent professions that have become convinced that Systema is the method that they will, literally; bet their life on.

So said, I will leave this thread now to the 'experts' who know so much more about martial arts than I do with my 40 years in study and those who know how attacks are 'really done' because my 25+ total years in Corrections, executive security, club security and skip tracing have left me without a clue as to this reality. Write on, experts and experienced ones; maybe you can enlighten me....forgive me, though; if I do not hold my breath, agreed?

 

[KyleShort]

All:
I'm not sure how this somehow migrated to a perception of me knocking on Systema. The original intent of this thread was to present the idea that Systema videos do not appear "realistic" to those who practice more orthadox methods of MA training, and as such I was wondering how Systema people overcame this potentially missleading truth. I never intended to say Systema was bad. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

Furtry:
I never complained about Systema being slow...if you look at my previous posts you will see that I am an advocate of slow training as I do it myself. What I did say was that the videos seem unrealistic. But this is an issue of perception, not the System. My whole argument is that Systema can be PERCIEVED poorly through the videos on the web, but I am not saying that it is at all.

I stand by the notion that the knife attack as executed was not pristine example of knife skill. However, if you'll note, I DID SAY that the Systema response seemed to be very good. And as far as my interest, man, I am clearly interested. I would not have started this thread if I was not interested. That clip was posted for a reason. It is public. I gave a critical analysis from my own limited point of view but I do not see that as being rude. Why post something to a public discussion forum if it should not be discussed?

Your bleachers analogy is not very strong because I am not heckling you in practice man. I am simply asking my questions about Systema so that I may learn. I do want to see it first hand, and I try every day to locate an instructor in my area but I am unable to find any at all. So I am religated to asking my HONEST questions in hopes that I will get honest reponses and that I may learn a little. I am sorry if I have been rude, that was not my intention.

NYCRonin:
I am sorry that I was missunderstood and I am sorry if I offended you in any way. If you'll note in my post, I was never critical about your skill, but rather the skill of the technique as it was executed in the video that I saw. I don't question that you may be skilled, and may certainly posess far greater skill than my own. This is the very reason that I only critiqued what I saw in the video, and that is all. I stand by my analysis of the technique, and I applaud you for your efforts in training and would never presume to know anything about you.

You apear to be guilty of the very thing that I attempted to avoid. You took the limited detail given about me (that I was stabbed once) and presumed to know the greater detail of my life. This is errant. You don't know of the scars I carry, the bats or guns that I have faced, where I have lived and what I have seen. But that's ok, I certainly would not expect you to, given that I did not tell you anything about me =)

Don't fault me for being "an arm chair quarterback". One can learn a lot by analyzing the actions of others. Indeed real life quarterbacks often review game footage of others for this very reason. You presume to know that I do not train hard? You presume to know that I do not "get into the water" myself? I try, as hard as I can, every day. But that does not matter to you or anyone else, because we train only for ourselves.

This thread was meant to help me understand a little about Systema, an art that I am very curious about and wish I could train in myself. Somehow things got turned around. But please see that I did not presume to know about you're skill as a fighter, only the skill of what I saw on video. Please accept my apology for not clearly communicating that.

I see no wrong in expressing my analysis of the video posted, and unless the mods ask me to cease such activities, I will continue to do so when I come across videos in the future. However, I will make a better effort at not coming across as personally attacking an art form or the individuals in the video.

It is clear that my line of questioning into the Systema clan on this board is not apprecitated and I will retreat back to what I know. Indeed, back home where I can mend my pulled lat muscle and train with my friends.

 

[Furtry]

Kyle where are you located? Your profile doesn't say. There are knowledgeable people all over the states.

 

[KyleShort]

I am in Sacramento, California and I plan to attend the Systema seminar coming up in San Francisco (about 2 hours away). I have done tons of web searches and with such a large Russian population in Sacramento I thought I would find something, but nope...can't find anything =(

I'd love to take you up on your offer and have you provide me the opportunity to experience Systema first hand, but alas, I just bought a house and I could not afford to fly to Ontario =)