What has karate become?

[chinto01]

Hello my friends. Last evening while sitting at home I tuned in to ESPN actually I ran across it and they were airing a taped tournament from last year. Think it was a Paul Mitchell Tournament in Florida. Anyways while watching this with my wife I began to wonder about what is going to happen to the martial arts in the future. Let me explain. When I was coming up throught the ranks and going to tournaments we did traditional forms and sparring was done with only an athletic supporter and groin contact was legal. There was a sense of honor at these events and the arrogance that you see today was bareley seen if at all. People did not kiai a million times and do back flips in their forms and their weapons forms were exactly that weapons forms not an acrobatic display. You were judged on your form and the correct breathing, stances, kiai etc not on how flashy you were or the name on the back of your top. Where am I going with this? Well last evening while watching this program I felt I was watching more of a gymnastics routine than a "karate" kata. Granted the competitors today are great athletes probably better than I was at their age but I wonder what is going to happen in the future. There was not one traditional form shown on this program and the commentators sounded like they were talking about a gymnastics meet rather than a "karate" form. So with all of that being said I begin to wonder if the traditional martial arts are dying a slow death? Are we becomming a dying breed to the flashier more acrobatic forms? My own son looked at me last evening and asked why we do not do that form at the dojo. My response to him was " that is not karate son, it is acrobatics." Point being is that the future students who see this display on t.v. will expect that most schools are like this. I don't know maybe I enjoy the traditional end of things to much. But in my opinion that is what it is all about. Tradition! Not who has the flashier kata but who has the most effective form. What do you guys think???

In the spirit of Bushido!

Rob

 

[Andrew Green]

What has biking become?

Hello my friends. Last evening while sitting at home I tuned in to ESPN actually I ran across it and they were airing a taped tournament from last year. Anyways while watching this with my wife I began to wonder about what is going to happen to biking in the future. Let me explain. When I was competing we raced long distances across different terrain, it was biking in a traditional sense. There was a sense of honor at these events and the arrogance that you see today was bareley seen if at all. People did not do back flips on there bikes, and there bikes where a valued piece method of transportation.. You were judged on your speed and endurance not on how flashy you were or the name on the back of your top. Where am I going with this? Well last evening while watching this program I felt I was watching more of a gymnastics routine than a biking event. Granted the competitors today are great athletes probably better than I was at their age but I wonder what is going to happen in the future. There was not one traditional bike race shown on this program and the commentators sounded like they were talking about a gymnastics meet rather than a biking competition. So with all of that being said I begin to wonder if biking is dying a slow death? Are we becomming a dying breed to the flashier more acrobatic forms? My own son looked at me last evening and asked why we do not do that trick at the track. My response to him was " that is not biking son, it is acrobatics." Point being is that the future students who see this display on t.v. will expect that most schools are like this. I don't know maybe I enjoy the traditional end of things to much. But in my opinion that is what it is all about. Tradition! Not who has the flashier bike but who has the most effective form. What do you guys think???




I think it is a different sport, so what is the big deal?

 

[chinto01]

Mr. Green I think you are missing the point that I am trying to make. I was just wondering if people felt the same way that I did and am also curious as to what people think will happen to the traditional arts. That is all. It would be a shame to see alll those years of tradition washed away with all of the new flashier acrobatic arts.

Thanks for your response.

Rob

 

[terryl965]

I understand your derlima I train my three 11-8-6 and they see all the flashy type of ISKA events too but I'm a old schooler and I teach that way. My oldest works on the side with the flips and arobics move and that is alright with me but in the Dojaang it is tradition and only tradition during class. We all know that the Arts are evolving there has been many threads about it but over time and age the flashy will become the tradition of old, hopefully after my death.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Andrew Green]

Mr. Green I think you are missing the point that I am trying to make.

Not at all.

I think it is a different sport.

Traditional arts will always be around, same as traditional bike races.

The newer "flashier" stuff might grow bigger, same as BMX vs 10-speed. So what?

Lets face it, traditional karate has never been a mainstream activity. If this becomes one and traditional karate stays where it is does that really "hurt" the traditional stuff?

 

[relytjj]

XMA is what it is but it shouldn't be called karate or any other term associated with MA. For as atheletic as these acrobats are I'd bet they couldn't fight for anything.

At one point the commentators mentioned that one form was better than another due to it have three more releases. I believe the form was for a katana. Now I don't do any practicing with weapons whatsoever but who the hell would release their grip on a weapon ever?

 

[Andrew Green]

A lot of traditional martial artists can't fight either... But those XMA are great athletes which can go a long way on its own.

 

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Releasing the grip on a katana???

Only when you have re-sheathed it

or you are dead!

 

[The Kai]

XMA is merely a form of acrobatics. A XMA'ist has more in common with a figure skating. It is indeed a new sport, so don't calll it "martial arts"

 

[Bammx2]

On a personal note;

When I first came to england 5 years ago,I hooked up with some of these freestyle kickboxers(point fighters) who were very much into the "flash" appeal.
I,myself,am old school shotokan and shorinryu.
Now these guys are good and damn flashy!
I tried thier game for a while.
But when I got fed up,I resorted back to the "old school" techniques and style of fighting.
SCREW FLASH!
As it turned out...there 4 of us "old schoolers" and we ruled the roost!
For us....
we didn't look at it as competition training when we started our training.
We looked at it as a way to actually defend ourselves on the street and we knew "flash" was useless in a streetfight.
But nowadays.....
flash sells!
And thats what people want.
I even know of an instructor here who is quite popular and does quite well (4 grand+ a WEEK) and admits his stuff is useless in actual combat....but thats what he claims to teach...."street effective combat".
As for me....
Thier is a TKD instr in my same building.He has 4 times the students I have because of the "flash"....
But in secret...he trains with me in Rapid Arnis because of the effectiveness

 

[Moogong]

I agree with Andrew...it's a different sport. Sadly, many people will confuse traditional arts with the new XMA stuff, but misconceptions about the arts is nothing new.
The one thing that sticks out in my mind while these type of events is how bad the competitors basics are. Granted, I can't do a backflip or no-hand cartwheel to save my life but I can do a proper front stance and I would not trade that for a million flashy techniques.

 

[dubljay]

A lot of traditional martial artists can't fight either... But those XMA are great athletes which can go a long way on its own.

You make a really good point here. If you want to take martial arts into the context of self-defense then athletic ability is a key factor. Having the endurance to perform one of those forms is about equal to the same endurance required in a knock down drag out fight.

I see another aspect many over look about this: for these people to perform at this level they have to train every day. Like it or not they are dedicated to their art. This is more than I can say about some of the "weekend warior" traditional old school black belts that I know.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, nor is it something that would be practical for me to do. Remember it is the artist, not the art.

 

[dsp921]

Hello my friends. Last evening while sitting at home I tuned in to ESPN actually I ran across it and they were airing a taped tournament from last year. Think it was a Paul Mitchell Tournament in Florida. Anyways while watching this with my wife I began to wonder about what is going to happen to the martial arts in the future. Let me explain. When I was coming up throught the ranks and going to tournaments we did traditional forms and sparring was done with only an athletic supporter and groin contact was legal. There was a sense of honor at these events and the arrogance that you see today was bareley seen if at all. People did not kiai a million times and do back flips in their forms and their weapons forms were exactly that weapons forms not an acrobatic display. You were judged on your form and the correct breathing, stances, kiai etc not on how flashy you were or the name on the back of your top. Where am I going with this? Well last evening while watching this program I felt I was watching more of a gymnastics routine than a "karate" kata. Granted the competitors today are great athletes probably better than I was at their age but I wonder what is going to happen in the future. There was not one traditional form shown on this program and the commentators sounded like they were talking about a gymnastics meet rather than a "karate" form. So with all of that being said I begin to wonder if the traditional martial arts are dying a slow death? Are we becomming a dying breed to the flashier more acrobatic forms? My own son looked at me last evening and asked why we do not do that form at the dojo. My response to him was " that is not karate son, it is acrobatics." Point being is that the future students who see this display on t.v. will expect that most schools are like this. I don't know maybe I enjoy the traditional end of things to much. But in my opinion that is what it is all about. Tradition! Not who has the flashier kata but who has the most effective form. What do you guys think???

In the spirit of Bushido!

Rob

I saw the same tournament on ESPN last night. I had pretty much the identical thoughts as you. I'm not positive but I think they had a screen graphic that said the division was traditional forms. I'm not a fan of what goes on at the big tournaments these days. If you want to dance and do gymnastics, that's fine, but please don't call it martial arts. Guess I'm more of a strict traditionalist. I would like to see some of those spinning, flipping, twisting kicks executed on a heavy bag.
The weapon stuff was ridiculous.
I have to give credit to John Su for keeping his kata traditional and not resorting to useless aerial displays.
Yes, the competitors are very athletic, I'm not taking that away from them, I just don't think what they do today belongs in martial arts tournament.

 

[Makalakumu]

What happened to Karate?

A free market. Western ideas. Capitalism. The root of McDojo.

Karate is now a product and styles are trademarked. Students at dojos and dojangs are now customers. The bottom line is that XMA is demanded by the consumer and teachers "appear" to teach them and take their money. Heck, we have 2 to 2.5 hour commercials/movies that promote this kind of MA.

We can expect more of the same in the future. People will provide what the consumer demands and it won't matter whether or not someone wishes to call it martial arts or not. If someone believes it is and they are willing to pay, then it becomes what they and their money make it.

This is how our society works whether one agrees or disagrees.

What can traditionalists do? Go with it. Build a market for traditional martial arts. Find a strategy to attract students. Teach what you want and accept the consequences. In my opinion, others are perfectly entitled to teach what they want.

I, however, have the freedom to teach how and what I want.

upnorthkyosa

 

[The Kai]

You make a really good point here. If you want to take martial arts into the context of self-defense then athletic ability is a key factor. Having the endurance to perform one of those forms is about equal to the same endurance required in a knock down drag out fight.

.

I see that you've never been ina fight

 

[Andrew Green]

Another thing to consider...

If what they do has no connection to fighting and therefore should not be called Martial arts, isn't that just opening a door for a bunch of MMA & Muay Thai fighters to come in and say that forms, one steps, the majority of "self-defence" techniques, the majority of what gets taught as "bunkai", etc as being in the same group?

What they do is martial arts, it might not be about fighting, or self-defence, or warrior virtues, but it is martial arts. In fact I think when most people here "Martial arts" what comes to mind is exactly what they are doing. Performance art, an artistic representation of fighting.

 

[chinto01]

The acrobatic forms that I saw last evening had no representation to fighting at all. It was nothing more than a dance routine with a weapon and a few kicks thrown in to call it a form. Ask these individuals who were doing these forms what the applications in their forms are and I bet not one could answer you.

 

[dsp921]

Martial Arts are, by definition, about fighting, and the use of knowledge and skill to fight. If it has nothing to do with fighting, it isn't martial arts.
martial - of, relating to, or suited for war.
art - 1. a branch of learning 2. systematic use of knowledge or skill in making or doing things.

 

[Andrew Green]

Martial Arts are, by definition, about fighting, and the use of knowledge and skill to fight. If it has nothing to do with fighting, it isn't martial arts.
martial - of, relating to, or suited for war.
art - 1. a branch of learning 2. systematic use of knowledge or skill in making or doing things.

Well, in that case all of us fail the test.

If you want martial arts you have to join the army. No war has ever been fought unarmed and one on one.

Plus, I think all the actors, painter, musicians, poets, etc. will be surprised to find out that if they wanted to be artists they should have taken up a trade.

Good use of a dictionary though...

 

[dubljay]

I see that you've never been ina fight

Oh? What makes you say that. This is not a thread for this, if you wish to attack my credibility please do so via pm or email