Can kata be done two ways?

[chinto01]

Hello all. I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on being able to do kata both traditionally and then modified for a tournament. Let me go a little deeper.

I have no love for the tournament circuit. While I think there are some good things that can come from them I believe that on a whole they have become nothing more than breeding grounds for egos. But that is a conversation for another time.

I help teach at a friends dojo which is mostly children and teens and in order to keep it running he teaches with the edge to tournament karate. Not an ideal circumstance for me but he is like a brother to me and I want to help him out. So in helping him out I worked for a month sharing with one of his students the kata gojushio. I was pleased with the progress of the student and it made me feel good to share this form with him. After a few weeks I had not seen the student because he was on a different schedule than mine and the next time I did see him I felt like I was going to throw up.

It was getting close to a local tournament and they were going to work on tournament kata that night. Getting up and doing the form in front of the class type of thing. In a way I was excited because I was going to see this student share this form in front of the class now. Needless to say I was shocked. He did the form and it looked totally different. Actually it was a mess. I was heart broken and it felt as if someone hit me in the gut with a pipe. So I gathered my stuff and left for the evening not saying a word to the student just telling people I had to get home. The wind was out of my sails. I felt sold out.

The tournament comes and goes and the student takes first place with the kata. So the following week I offered my congratulations to him but did not feel any excitement for him. So that night I watch him do the kata again and it is done the way he did it in the tournament. This goes on for a couple of weeks and I finally approach him and ask "why did you change the form that I showed you?" His response " I could not win with that form, did you want me to lose?" Deep down I would rather have him lose than change the form that I took the time to share with him. So I talked with my buddy who runs the dojo and he says that we have to let them modify the forms for tournaments and have them done the right way in the dojo. He thinks this can be done. I do not. What are your thoughts and I apologize for the long post but it is frustrating!

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Brother John]

Kata "CAN" be done in many ways.
BUT: Should it?
That's the question I think. If the school is a school that emphasizes tournaments....and that's their focus; then by all means ---shape the performance of the kata to the event you sign up for and do. If it's "Kata to music"...then you best be able to keep a beat.
Just please....OH please....don't make it a "Dance-Kata". Some look interesting, but if there's a real martial artist walking by.....they might have a brain hemorage or something from the laughter.

Your Brother
John

 

[DeLamar.J]

I understand why you are upset. But here is whats going on with your student, and I hope this helps you out. Most people who are involved in those fancy tournaments are more worried about looking fancy rather than effective, they are more worried about the cheers from the crowd rather than the cheer from an instructor for doing a proper kata.
Their views on what martial arts is has been washed up by movies, media, and mc dojos. His reasons for training are not fully matured at this point, but in time they will, or he will quit when he begins to feel empty inside even after hearing the crowd cheer for him. He will be confused and not realize why martial arts is not doing the same thing for him deep inside as it used to. This is your chance to expose him to real martial arts, and he will realize that the crowd cheering is just a distraction form the real answer to the puzzle.

 

[Grenadier]

It depends on the type of tournament, and the division in which he competes.

I've known quite a few folks who want to enter the "Mandatory" divisions, but are from different systems than where they simply don't use the kata from the "Big Four." They end up learning kata from one of those four styles, and focus on that for their competition. It's not unusual for them to also use that same kata for the non-mandatory divisions.

I really don't have any problem with that, as long as the tournament is a decent traditional tournament. Besides, exposure to other systems' methods is almost always a good thing, and that diversity can help the student understand.

This is where you, the instructor, have control over how it's really done. If you're at a decent tournament, as long as your students' fundamentals are solid, and as long as they stay focused, they DO have more than their fair chance of winning. Period.

I whole-heartedly agree with Brother John; I certainly wouldn't want someone from my school going to a "flash" tournament where people jumping, spinning in 720 degree arcs and twirling around glowing LED-implanted sticks were the norm, though. If the judges are looking for such fluff and buff, then that's a tournament in which I wouldn't want to be.

I realize it's an exaggeration, but that's simply done to get the point across to the original poster.

 

[Robert Lee]

Katas have been getting changed for comptition for many years. If you look back into the eary 1980s several people did this And won there division. Now I do not agree with it. But they get the cheers at the tournament So they think its right to do it. Kata was a solo part of a given styles training. Many good tools lay in those katas.,that break down to useable tools if understood. Some schools rely heavy on youth and tournaments to provide income That breaks down the M/A purpose and gives the Mc dojo name something to back it up. Kind of a off shoot for student retention. Not right but so many schools do this now.

 

[MJS]

Hello all. I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on being able to do kata both traditionally and then modified for a tournament. Let me go a little deeper.

I have no love for the tournament circuit. While I think there are some good things that can come from them I believe that on a whole they have become nothing more than breeding grounds for egos. But that is a conversation for another time.

I help teach at a friends dojo which is mostly children and teens and in order to keep it running he teaches with the edge to tournament karate. Not an ideal circumstance for me but he is like a brother to me and I want to help him out. So in helping him out I worked for a month sharing with one of his students the kata gojushio. I was pleased with the progress of the student and it made me feel good to share this form with him. After a few weeks I had not seen the student because he was on a different schedule than mine and the next time I did see him I felt like I was going to throw up.

It was getting close to a local tournament and they were going to work on tournament kata that night. Getting up and doing the form in front of the class type of thing. In a way I was excited because I was going to see this student share this form in front of the class now. Needless to say I was shocked. He did the form and it looked totally different. Actually it was a mess. I was heart broken and it felt as if someone hit me in the gut with a pipe. So I gathered my stuff and left for the evening not saying a word to the student just telling people I had to get home. The wind was out of my sails. I felt sold out.

The tournament comes and goes and the student takes first place with the kata. So the following week I offered my congratulations to him but did not feel any excitement for him. So that night I watch him do the kata again and it is done the way he did it in the tournament. This goes on for a couple of weeks and I finally approach him and ask "why did you change the form that I showed you?" His response " I could not win with that form, did you want me to lose?" Deep down I would rather have him lose than change the form that I took the time to share with him. So I talked with my buddy who runs the dojo and he says that we have to let them modify the forms for tournaments and have them done the right way in the dojo. He thinks this can be done. I do not. What are your thoughts and I apologize for the long post but it is frustrating!

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

I wouldn't take it to heart Rob. I'm sure you did a fine job of teaching the kata to this person. However, and I may be wrong, but I'm thinking that he was entering in the open forms division, not the traditional division. Many events have made separations due to this very thing...someone who wants to do 'flashy moves' and someone who wants to keep with the tradition, but would probably not win, because many events lean more towards flash. Think about how much flash there is in weapons divisions as well as sparring. I haven't been to an event in a long time, but the ones that I did attend, I saw some sparring moves that left me thinking, "Wow, if this guy tried that on the street, he'd get killed!"

Mike

 

[Kacey]

I understand your frustration and distress, and to a certain extent, I agree with it. However, it will be difficult to convince this student at this time - he won, which was apparently what was important to him. I am fortunate enough to be in an organization where the standards for our tournaments are the same as for testing - but I've been to open tournaments and have seen some truly unusual things... the best of which had to be some years ago, at a tournament hosted by our organization but open to others (under our rules). This one young lady was in the patterns competition, and performed an interesting and seemingly well-developed pattern. Somewhat to her apparent surprise, she won that pairing and moved up the bracket. This turned out to be more of a problem than expected... because it became apparent when she came up the second time that the pattern had changed - when you add a 2nd shoulder roll, it becomes obvious even to those who don't know the pattern that something is different. We found out later from her instructor that she forgot the pattern, so she made one up, knowing we didn't know it... and then when she was called up again, she couldn't remember what she'd done the first time.

As long as this student's focus is on tournament competition, then his patterns and techniques will reflect that. The best thing you can do is continue to provide an appropriate example, and to try to explain to him why your forms are different than his. This may be difficult - in fact, I'd be surprised if it's not - but as long as his focus is tournaments and not technical proficiency, then there's not much else you can do without risking the relationship entirely. It's a difficult situation to be in.

 

[Flatlander]

Don't sweat this, Rob. Remember, not all folks are motivated to achieve the same thing with their training. If a youngster believes that this is the way they want to focus their time, that is not your problem.

You have done the honourable thing as a teacher and shared. What the student does with that information is beyond your control. The only thing you really have control over is with whom you share your knowledge. That is the decision that you need to make. However, the student's misuse of your shared knowledge is no compromise to your principles. You've done nothing wrong here.

Consider it a lesson. Perhaps you need to be a little bit more selective with whom you share your knowledge if it hurts you to see it misapplied. You are free to do that without offending your friend. If he/she is a true friend to you, they will understand your position.

Alternatively, you may decide that helping your friend is the most important factor. If that's the case, you need to let go of your need to control how your teaching is received, and how the skills you share are applied.

One way or another, you do retain the choice here. So, consider your priorities and values, and choose whatever feels right to you.

Best of luck.

 

[Cirdan]

Personally I think competition involving kata and especially group kata is plain silly.

My reason can be summed up like this: "Make the Kata yours"

 

[tshadowchaser]

Yes they can, have and will be changed for competition. Do I like seeing a form i know change just so it "looks better" for the judges, no.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I do not allow modifications of kata for tournament competition. If you can't win with traditional kata you are not doing it correctly in my opinion or not competing the the right tournaments.

The one and only time I allow a modification to a kata is if I do it myself do to compenstate for a students health problem. Thats the only time its allowed in my dojo. If someone wants to create a kata and make it creative for tournaments fine there is divisions for that but they won't do it before shodan and they will still practice the traditional kata in class.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I find a good way to develop my kata is to do it differnitly. Some one who knows the form would still recongize it, though. The changes I make are small, but do leave a noticable affect. For example if normally I step to the east (assuming I start faceing north), Instead I go wast. Then I would normally go west, so I go east. If normaly I then go north, go south. And so on. I never change technique or stance, though the way I move and sometimes the order of movements does change.
From what I gather he left little the same. Thats a big no-no. And useing a modified from for anything other then personal training is also a big no-no. Modifing a form or drill can be a unique way to train your movement skill and combinations, they shouldn't be used for much of anything else.

John, hopeing you find a way to deal with this.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Try practicing kata Hantai (backwards) changes only the direction and which hand and foot is used.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Try practicing kata Hantai (backwards) changes only the direction and which hand and foot is used.

In refernce to me, or someone else? And I do.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

In refernce to me, or someone else? And I do.

Ok then I misunderstood your post.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Ok then I misunderstood your post.

That was an example. I have a list of 20 something ways to modify kata. And no problem. Crap happens.

John

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Wow 20 ways. Thats what I meant by hantai it is exactly mirrored. I guess thats the only way I knew of.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Isolation of things like techniques, stances, stepping forward/backward, and so on. Part of the reason is also I'll do kata with weapons. And there is also closet kata. When ever you would step, you jump in that derection, you don't advance though. Do all the forms you know that way and your heart, lungs and legs will be on fire. It's a great work out. This is giving me an idea for a thread.

John

 

[chinto01]

Thanks all for your replies. The responses are what I thought they would be. Just needed a place to vent I guess. I have taken a number of your ideas and have discussed them with my friend. On a whole he was less than receptive to many of them saying that if I choose who I work with then it can be looked at as favoritisim. I totally understand that. This may be an avenue for me however to possibly look into doing my own thing now? Who knows.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Competitive martial arts is a great thing with lots to teach. Unfortunetly its become way to flashy.