What does Black Belt mean to "YOU".

[dbell]

A black belt to me is someone that has received most if not all of the techniques and knowledge of an art, and their level of black belt (use to any way, now a days I'm not so sure...) to tells me:

1st Degree BB - Knows 95% of the art, has been taught all of the student content, and should be pretty good at it.
2nd Degree BB - Has received a bit more knowledge to keep him/her learning, and is teaching more frequently, honing their skills.
3rd Degree BB - (Japanese Has received all of the knowledge of the art, teaching often, able to open a new school in the name of their Sensei. (Korean typically has a bit more to receive these days, but didn't originally, and are teaching.)
4th Degree BB - (Japanese Has improved in skill and understanding of the art, and has been grooming students that have reached BB. (Korean Completed their learning, and are teaching more, Master status.
5th Degree BB - (Japanese Has advanced a few BBs, and is given the authority to open a school in their name, not their Sensei's, Master Status. (Korean Same as Japanese, but already classified as Master.

Beyond 5th is just fluff to me. (Including mine that are beyond 5th.)

On the down side, I see more and more schools opening up with little or no supervision by 1st Dan BBs, which use to be unheard of! In every Art I know, a BB is still getting their art taught to them at 1st Dan, and they should be working with their Sensei (etc.) as they move up to 2nd and 3rd Dan (or 4th in many Korean arts), helping to teach under the Sensei's supervision... Once they reach 3rd Dan (4th in many Korean arts) then they have what it takes to open a complete school. Both in training themselves and time teaching under supervision... Sad times in many arts as people move away from some solidly built concepts that had meaning behind them....

 

[Draven]

I've heard of 1st Dan instructors for satalite schools; basicly you have the Hombu-Dojo and then they open up satalite schools in areas without any but have 1st Dans from the Hombu-Dojo teach there. The Shodan are still training at the Hombu and until they get promoted above Shodan they have to refer the students getting to shodan to the Hombu Dojo for testing...

I haven't seen any 1st Dan instructors; I've seen blue belt BJJ instructors which I think is a joke in itself.

 

[Hudson69]

For me it was like graduating from a military school or the police academy. It was like finally getting to that first real level of ability. But for me it took forever.................................................

 

[Bruno@MT]

I've heard of 1st Dan instructors for satalite schools; basicly you have the Hombu-Dojo and then they open up satalite schools in areas without any but have 1st Dans from the Hombu-Dojo teach there. The Shodan are still training at the Hombu and until they get promoted above Shodan they have to refer the students getting to shodan to the Hombu Dojo for testing...

I haven't seen any 1st Dan instructors; I've seen blue belt BJJ instructors which I think is a joke in itself.

It all depends on the system itself.
My ninpo sensei was a 5th kyu when he opened the dojo where I enrolled. He teaches under the supervision of the head sensei who is a 5th dan.

In Genbukan, it is not out of the ordinary for a kyu level person to become group leader under supervision of a higher level sensei. The rule of thumb in Genbukan is about 1 kyu level per year. My sensei has been learning for 5 years. When he started our group the rest were all newbies. In that light, he is more than qualified enough to teach and he grows along together with us. It depends on the person wanting to do this (not everyone would be allowed) but if he is qualified and motivated, this is not strange at all imo.

Look at it the other way: getting a shodan takes 10 years. 5th dan over 20 years. If sensei had to be nidan or higher, it would be 15 years before they were allowed to teach. I heard that BJJ also takes 10 years to shodan.

TKD otoh has a couple years to shodan. Looking at it like that, a 5th kyu in genbukan is as qualified to teach as a shodan in TKD (assuming they have the motivation and personality fit for a teacher)

 

[dbell]

It all depends on the system itself.
My ninpo sensei was a 5th kyu when he opened the dojo where I enrolled. He teaches under the supervision of the head sensei who is a 5th dan.

In Genbukan, it is not out of the ordinary for a kyu level person to become group leader under supervision of a higher level sensei. The rule of thumb in Genbukan is about 1 kyu level per year. My sensei has been learning for 5 years. When he started our group the rest were all newbies. In that light, he is more than qualified enough to teach and he grows along together with us. It depends on the person wanting to do this (not everyone would be allowed) but if he is qualified and motivated, this is not strange at all imo.

Look at it the other way: getting a shodan takes 10 years. 5th dan over 20 years. If sensei had to be nidan or higher, it would be 15 years before they were allowed to teach. I heard that BJJ also takes 10 years to shodan.

TKD otoh has a couple years to shodan. Looking at it like that, a 5th kyu in genbukan is as qualified to teach as a shodan in TKD (assuming they have the motivation and personality fit for a teacher)

I have no problem with a lower level student teaching, or opening a study group as long as there is a senior Dan supervising the satellite school. I am not saying that a 1st Dan can't teach, they should be, under supervision.

What I do not understand is a 1st Dan splitting off from their instructor, opening a school in their name, advancing students, and often themselves, as they see fit. A 1st Dan, or lower, typically (there are exceptions here of course!) doesn't have the full understanding of the art in order to do such.

Is there a problem with waiting 15 years of study to open their own school? I don't think so personally.

 

[seasoned]

A black belt to me is someone that has received most if not all of the techniques and knowledge of an art, and their level of black belt (use to any way, now a days I'm not so sure...) to tells me:

1st Degree BB - Knows 95% of the art, has been taught all of the student content, and should be pretty good at it.
2nd Degree BB - Has received a bit more knowledge to keep him/her learning, and is teaching more frequently, honing their skills.
3rd Degree BB - (Japanese Has received all of the knowledge of the art, teaching often, able to open a new school in the name of their Sensei. (Korean typically has a bit more to receive these days, but didn't originally, and are teaching.)
4th Degree BB - (Japanese Has improved in skill and understanding of the art, and has been grooming students that have reached BB. (Korean Completed their learning, and are teaching more, Master status.
5th Degree BB - (Japanese Has advanced a few BBs, and is given the authority to open a school in their name, not their Sensei's, Master Status. (Korean Same as Japanese, but already classified as Master.

Beyond 5th is just fluff to me. (Including mine that are beyond 5th.)

On the down side, I see more and more schools opening up with little or no supervision by 1st Dan BBs, which use to be unheard of! In every Art I know, a BB is still getting their art taught to them at 1st Dan, and they should be working with their Sensei (etc.) as they move up to 2nd and 3rd Dan (or 4th in many Korean arts), helping to teach under the Sensei's supervision... Once they reach 3rd Dan (4th in many Korean arts) then they have what it takes to open a complete school. Both in training themselves and time teaching under supervision... Sad times in many arts as people move away from some solidly built concepts that had meaning behind them....

You bring up some good points. I like the progression you have made above, to illustrate the journey. The point beyond 5th I feel is a melding point, because of the age factor involved. It is a great time of reflection on the art you have trained in and dedacated your life to for many years. I feel there is much that can be handed down in the form of insight and direction of which may be missing other wise. If you are fortunate to have your Sensei still alive, it is a bonding time with someone you can relate to in a special way. After looking at all the posts above I feel our thoughts may change on our feelings of what that black belt means to us as we age. Fluff, maybe, but it will definitely give us something to occupy our minds with, while in that rocking chair.

 

[dbell]

You bring up some good points. I like the progression you have made above, to illustrate the journey. The point beyond 5th I feel is a melding point, because of the age factor involved. It is a great time of reflection on the art you have trained in and dedacated your life to for many years. I feel there is much that can be handed down in the form of insight and direction of which may be missing other wise. If you are fortunate to have your Sensei still alive, it is a bonding time with someone you can relate to in a special way. After looking at all the posts above I feel our thoughts may change on our feelings of what that black belt means to us as we age. Fluff, maybe, but it will definitely give us something to occupy our minds with, while in that rocking chair.

I guess "fluff" was a bad word to use. By that I meant, that above 5th Dan is more of a time issue and an honor given for accomplishments and further growth in the art.

That said, in my Kendo ryu/tradition, at 3rd Dan you are given a license to open your own school, in the name of the parent school and able to grade up to and including 1st Dan, but need a panel of three to five other 3rd or higher Dan's to belt 2nd Dan. At 5-7th Dan you are given a license that says you are able to grade up to 2nd Dan directly, should have a panel of five 5th Dan or higher Instructors to issue 3rd and up to one level below you. At 8th Dan and up you are able to grade up to your level minus 1, but you should have buy in from the Soke/Head of Family. At 8th Dan you are free to open a school in any name you want. Prior to 3rd Dan, you are not able to belt (test/pass) anyone. You should be teaching from 1st Dan on...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Re: What does Black Belt mean to "YOU".

It means that you have completed the kyu/geub/equivalent grade syllabus and are proficient in the techniques taught up to that point by that teacher at that school. The student has demonstrated a level of maturity and fortitude befitting of one moving into advanced training in a martial arts school.

Proficiency: the student can effectively handle themselves in the environment(s) for which they have trained using the techniques of the style/system/art. This does not equivocate to mastery.

Thus if you go to a sport only WTF school, you should be proficient and able to handle yourself well in the WTF sport environment.

Which brings me to the last part: my bolded words above: by that teacher at that school.

Your rank and belt and such are fairly meaningless outside of your school, even within the same style. A kumdo black belt? I didn't train you. My masters didn't train you. We respect that you earned your rank where you trained, but you will still have to prove that you can do and are proficient in our geub level material and go through our black belt testing in order to be a yudanja in our federation.

Likewise, if I go to another Kukki TKD school and hold up my second dan rank, I will still have to learn the things peculiar to that master's school and demonstrate to him or her that I know the curriculum.

Lastly, the belt means that when I wear it in class, other students can ask me questions and have every right to fully expect that I can answer them. That was at least one of the original reason for the belts in the first place as I recall: make it obvious who you can go to for assistance in order to avoid beginners leading beginners.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A black belt to me is someone that has received most if not all of the techniques and knowledge of an art, and their level of black belt (use to any way, now a days I'm not so sure...) to tells me:

1st Degree BB - Knows 95% of the art, has been taught all of the student content, and should be pretty good at it.
2nd Degree BB - Has received a bit more knowledge to keep him/her learning, and is teaching more frequently, honing their skills.
3rd Degree BB - (Japanese Has received all of the knowledge of the art, teaching often, able to open a new school in the name of their Sensei. (Korean typically has a bit more to receive these days, but didn't originally, and are teaching.)
4th Degree BB - (Japanese Has improved in skill and understanding of the art, and has been grooming students that have reached BB. (Korean Completed their learning, and are teaching more, Master status.
5th Degree BB - (Japanese Has advanced a few BBs, and is given the authority to open a school in their name, not their Sensei's, Master Status. (Korean Same as Japanese, but already classified as Master.

Beyond 5th is just fluff to me. (Including mine that are beyond 5th.)

On the down side, I see more and more schools opening up with little or no supervision by 1st Dan BBs, which use to be unheard of! In every Art I know, a BB is still getting their art taught to them at 1st Dan, and they should be working with their Sensei (etc.) as they move up to 2nd and 3rd Dan (or 4th in many Korean arts), helping to teach under the Sensei's supervision... Once they reach 3rd Dan (4th in many Korean arts) then they have what it takes to open a complete school. Both in training themselves and time teaching under supervision... Sad times in many arts as people move away from some solidly built concepts that had meaning behind them....

This post should be required reading for any black belt.

Regarding fluff after fifth: in most arts, I consider 6th and up to be administrative degrees/honors for time in training and promoting the art. I respect them highly, but do not consider them necessary. I have been training for a specific number of years. If I stop testing and train for another decade, the higher degree is a nice honor, but not necessary. I know the system in its entirety and am not going to have new techniques to test on.

Daniel

 

[KELLYG]

When I tested for black belt I was so excited and happy. All the months and years of hard training had culminated to a point where I was allowed and privileged to wear a black belt. It felt kinda weird at the same time because one day I was a colored belt and the other I was a black belt. I really did not know any more from one day to the next but I somehow felt different. The different part I can not put into words.

Having traveled through a couple of ranks, I now know that what I know is kind of like trying to empty a bath tub with a thimble. There is so much more, knowledge, in the tub than is currently inside me. With every time I train I try to take more out of the bath tub. Will the tub ever be empty, no, but I will be all the better for trying.

 

[seasoned]

When I tested for black belt I was so excited and happy. All the months and years of hard training had culminated to a point where I was allowed and privileged to wear a black belt. It felt kinda weird at the same time because one day I was a colored belt and the other I was a black belt. I really did not know any more from one day to the next but I somehow felt different. The different part I can not put into words.

Having traveled through a couple of ranks, I now know that what I know is kind of like trying to empty a bath tub with a thimble. There is so much more, knowledge, in the tub than is currently inside me. With every time I train I try to take more out of the bath tub. Will the tub ever be empty, no, but I will be all the better for trying.

Yes, these were the best of times and the worst of times. As you said, excited and happy, this is a good way to put it. At the same time it was one grueling physical test to boot. I remember the first class after testing, and the proud feeling. It didn't last long though, to find out that training was just beginning. I know what you mean about the feeling different part, almost like a feeling of acceptance, a even bigger responsibility. I wouldn't trade the memories for anything.

 

[bowser666]

to me it means moving into my next phase of training. Souther 5 Animals here I come !!!! I hope to be testing for BB within the next year.

 

[Draven]

It all depends on the system itself.
My ninpo sensei was a 5th kyu when he opened the dojo where I enrolled. He teaches under the supervision of the head sensei who is a 5th dan.

In Genbukan, it is not out of the ordinary for a kyu level person to become group leader under supervision of a higher level sensei. The rule of thumb in Genbukan is about 1 kyu level per year. My sensei has been learning for 5 years. When he started our group the rest were all newbies. In that light, he is more than qualified enough to teach and he grows along together with us. It depends on the person wanting to do this (not everyone would be allowed) but if he is qualified and motivated, this is not strange at all imo.

Well like I said I can see the satalite school model working for business and its very common as a business expansion tool; its also a hugely dependant marketing tool based on lineage and tradition. As for groups thats kind of a something I need to ask about; are we talking in class student groups and out of class satalite student groups..?

Look at it the other way: getting a shodan takes 10 years. 5th dan over 20 years. If sensei had to be nidan or higher, it would be 15 years before they were allowed to teach. I heard that BJJ also takes 10 years to shodan.

TKD otoh has a couple years to shodan. Looking at it like that, a 5th kyu in genbukan is as qualified to teach as a shodan in TKD (assuming they have the motivation and personality fit for a teacher)

Well, I'm actually against the whole broad stroke yearly time in rank thing. For example I have a couple students who are at about 5th kyu level; I dropped the belt ranking system for something more modern a ranked standard of instructional phases beginner (approximately 5th Kyu), novice (approx. 1st dan), advanced (approx 2nd dan), expert (3rd dan, asst. Instructor (4th dan) & Instructor (Approximately 5th dan) & I used credit hours divided between required class room instruction & sparring time. A student needs x-amount of hours per level for both sparring time & instruction. You aren't a beginner until you have have completed the basic instruction & passed the test, otherwise your just a student...

The reasons for this are simple; first off a student can come in once or twice a week for an hour and be considered to have trained there for a week. In my case the faster the progression is based on the actual time spent in training. If you spent 10 years to shodan & average 1,040hrs over ten years (2 hours a week x 52 weeks a year x 10 years) and someone spends 10 hours a week in the dojo for 2 years they have the same amount of hours of training. (10 hrs x 52 weeks x 2 years) are they less qualified..? Does the rank mean more because it was awarded at a slower pace or just more to them because it makes them feel as if they deserved it more..?

I had a student who hasn't made it past the beginner level yet & tapped out a blue belt in BJJ, within 30 minutes. Needless to say the BJJ-kid hasn't been back since, but my student is also logging 10 to 12 hours a week in the school, showing up earily & helping me clean up to stay late & learn more. By contrast the BJJ kid was getting about an hour of instruction a week, less then that when you count sparring time. See what I'm saying about broad stroke time in grades & the BJJ blue belt thing is just a satalite marketing technique. Its not a bad idea from that prospective not a good idea either when your talking about not being the only game in town. See what I'm saying..?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Minor clarification: I did not mean that grade is correlated to time spent in the dojo, in Genbukan. I just wanted to clarify that even if you train several times per week and train hard, you still won't advance to black belt in less than 7 to 10 years typically.

 

[Blade96]

my aunt told me she wants to fly to Newfoundland (she lives in alberta) and attend my black belt grading when my turn comes.

 

[Draven]

Minor clarification: I did not mean that grade is correlated to time spent in the dojo, in Genbukan. I just wanted to clarify that even if you train several times per week and train hard, you still won't advance to black belt in less than 7 to 10 years typically.

Classroom training & so many hours sparring, which does include sparring drills done under scenario drills to teach self-defense specific aspects.

I understand what you said but look at it like this even using the Genbukan as an example; student A & student B, Student A trains 1 hour a week with 52 weeks a year in 10 years he has 520 hours of training. Student B trains in the same system 2 hours a week & at 10 years has 1040 hours of training. Assuming both students learn at same rate & test at the same rate, then which student is better trained after the same 10 years..?

To me, this is why I went to the class hour time in grade format. Because well the broad stroke X-amount of time to promotion allows for such a huge gap in the amount of time students can actually train within that period. Also I think a willingness to train hard & train harder then the average is something which should be rewarded, I just found a structured way to do that.

Besides we all know the dirty little secret behind all commercial martial arts schools is that it is a business with a bottom line. No business can operate without maintaining that bottomline. As such some schools use the marketting tool of propmoting quickly to draw in more money from belt testing & other draw it out to keep a steady income coming in over time.

 

[ceaer]

To me, this is why I went to the class hour time in grade format. Because well the broad stroke X-amount of time to promotion allows for such a huge gap in the amount of time students can actually train within that period. Also I think a willingness to train hard & train harder then the average is something which should be rewarded, I just found a structured way to do that.

My school sort of combines the two. You have to wait x-amount of time between tests (the time varies by rank) but you also must have x-amount of classes in that time. If it's been x months but you're short classes, you're not testing. Conversely, if you don't have the entire time in but you've way exceeded the minimum classes, it's possible that you'll get the opportunity to test early. Generally speaking though, you need both (time and classes) to test.
But you can always tell who's testing with just the minimum time in and who's testing with extra time in. Sooner or later that catches up with the minimum time people and they start failing tests.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I understand what you said but look at it like this even using the Genbukan as an example; student A & student B, Student A trains 1 hour a week with 52 weeks a year in 10 years he has 520 hours of training. Student B trains in the same system 2 hours a week & at 10 years has 1040 hours of training. Assuming both students learn at same rate & test at the same rate, then which student is better trained after the same 10 years..?

That's the thing I meant.
Student B will not test at the same rate because the sensei won't let him.
It's not like tests are organized at specific intervals and you can decide to test or not. You only get to test if the sensei has confidnce that you'll do good during the test.

There is a minimum time in grade requirement, but that is largely theoretical.
Someone who trains 1 time per week will not be allowed to test at the same rate as someone who trains 2 to 3 times per week. Someone who trains 1 time per week will probably never reach shodan.

The 7 to 10 years I mentioned was on par for people who practice 2 or 3 times per week, and usually in their free time as well. It will of course vary slightly per dojo etc.

 

[Balrog]

A Black Belt is a leader by example. Someone who has set a high goal, achieved it and reset the goal even higher.

 

[kuntawguro]

a black belt is a leader by example. Someone who has set a high goal, achieved it and reset the goal even higher.

bingo!!!!