What do you think about Kajukenbo?

[James Kovacich]

Actually, I agree TKD so a perfect art to teach kids. Can't hurt each other with it and they expend thier energy!

That must be "the substance" that he said TKD had and Kajukenbo lacked. :uhyeah:

 

[James Kovacich]

Looking to get into martial arts for my son and myself.I want to take something that is very diverse.I understand what works in actual street fights and am looking for a style that incorperates striking but also doesnt forget the importance of grappling.Something that is a complete art.What martial art exists that is actually practical for street fighting/defense.Which teaches all aspects together?There are many Kajukenbo schools in my area.What are your impressions of Kajukenbo?I live 30 minutes from Fairfield,Vallejo,Stockton,Lodi,Antioch in California.Does anyone know of any well respected schools in my area I should check out?Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Take Mr. Bishops advice! Also Fairfield and Vallejo have a long history with Kajukenbo, you should try there first.

 

[James Kovacich]

No, but just in case you think that Tae Kwon Do is strictly a tournament style with no power, I practiced with guys that demonstrate otherwise. And just in case you think Tae Kwon Do has no self defense application, I've practiced with guys who've shown otherwise. And my Instructor grew up in a time in Korea where he had to use TKD to defend himself against thugs. So KJKB does not have the market on "realistic" self defense.

Oh really. Which style is most often referred to as "street tough?" And which style is most often referred to as a " mc' dojo day care center?" :uhyeah:

I'm not puuting your style down. There must be some good martial artist in it somewhere but to promote it as superior to Kaju is absurd. :uhyeah:

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't know, I've practiced with Tae Kwon Do students who didn't care about tournaments and who had some of the strongest technique I've ever seen. Could literally fold a sandbag in half.

:

Again, your talking about a minority in your art and not the majority.

 

[The Kai]

Classical Fighting Arts Magazine is a magazine dedicated to Japanese styles. Not to say it is a rag, because it is not. However, their attitude toward Tae Kwon Do is slightly above contemptuous. In their mind, TKD is nothing more than Korean Shotokan.
However, I stand behind my opinion that Tae Kwon Do is not, and was never, merely Korean Shotokan. Even starting with obvious Japanese influences, its Grandmasters made a conscious choice to have Tae Kwon Do establish its own identity.
But again, the coming together of the various Kwans and Masters was largely "encouraged" by the Korean gov't which wanted to see a unified art rather than a fragmented style. If you didn't join, you lost your Dan recognition. It was not brought about to pick and choose the best techniques of various styles. That is one of the main differences.

So you think that an art that unified for political reason, rather than for effency reasons is a superior art?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Not superior, but not a martial art that was the result of cherry picking either.

 

[James Kovacich]

, but not a martial art that was the result of cherry picking either.

Care to explain?

 

[The Kai]

So they merged the Kwans and said "hey lets keep every ineffecient, useless and anarchnistic technique in the system"

 

[DavidCC]

What's wrong with "cherry picking"? As someone who eats the fruit, I want the ripest cherries I can get. "Cherry Picking" means taking the best and discarding the rest. So unless you have some affinity for rotten fruit, why is this a bad idea?




"Michigan", lets summarize your discussion points:


-KJKB is not the only style that focuses on self-defense.
yes, everone agrees on that. Nobody ever claimed it was.

Styles that focus on SD should not use uniforms or ranks.
-this is your opinion. I think the consensus is that use of ranking systems can be either well used or abused. They can at best be used to foster discipline and order, and this is part of the substance you say KJKB lacks.. which is it?

-You state that in KJKB "Tradition, etiquette, manners, uniform etc. mean nothing" and then go on to say that this is a weakness (or hypocrisy) in KJKB.
Since you do not train KJKB, you are not qualified to say how important any given aspect of KJKB is to the style. the KJKB people deny that this is an accutrate description, and that these things are important to them.

-KJKB is not appropriate for young children because they need something with more substance. You later define "substance" as teaching responsibility for the knowledge, with no moral code.
Again, you are not in a position to evaluate the amount of "substance" there is in KJKB. The people who do train it say that it does teach these things.

-It's not an American Art
debatable, by definitions mostly, and very irrelevant.

-Japanese and Okinawan masters of the last century were so amazingly good that their styles could not possibly have had a mix of "cherries" and "pits", so the "cherry picking" of KJKB is questionable.
I think we could all agree that the performance of one person is in no way a measure of the quality of a style or art, good or bad. So your point here (that the arts from which KJKB drew were too good to be cherry picked) is not only nonsense, but you simply failed to establish it as factual, logically, by basing it on the premise that one good practitioner defines the quality of the entire art. And, it was stated by some that infact the old guys you mentioned in fact did the same type of cherry-picking to create their arts, anyway.

- you contend that "Natural Evolution" of a style is better than the conscious effort put forth by the founders of KJKB. But then later you back-peddle on the position that this is superior to cherry-picking, so I guess this point is not at all relevant.
And it may or may not be true. This might be an interesting thread by itself. However the example you gave of "Natural Evolution" was, the gov't of Korea black-mailing various TKD organization into working together. if that is "natural evolution" then I don't think you will be able to prove it is any of "better", "natural", or "evolution".


Sooooo, where does that leave you in your argument? Your footing is shakier than Ken Samrock's LOL.

You say it has no moral substance, but practicioners demonstrate it does.
You draw a destinction betwen "evolution" and "cherry picking", with "evolution" assumed to be superior... but then quickly back-peddle and admit "natural evolution" (under whatever impulse) is NOT SUPERIOR to cherry picking.

so now, please re-state, what is it that makes KJKB so weak in your eyes? Or just admit that you have only a vague emotional reaction not based in fact or experience. that's OK! We all have those. They are only bad when you try to pretend (or even delude yourself) that it is not what it is, by flailing around for facts and arguments to support what is basically a logically unsupportable reaction based in emotions..

Once you realize that you can start to figure out where that emotional reaction comes from... and maybe resolve some lingering negativity Good Luck!


-David

 

[47MartialMan]

Also, If you think that mixing techniques from various styles is not a good idea, take a look at the UFC etc. No one gets by on one style alone anymore. If you're not versed in multiple ranges, you're dead. When, for instance, did a TKD guy ever win one of those tournements?

How true...they did the same in many past eras anyway :asian:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

-You state that in KJKB "Tradition, etiquette, manners, uniform etc. mean nothing" and then go on to say that this is a weakness (or hypocrisy) in KJKB.
Since you do not train KJKB, you are not qualified to say how important any given aspect of KJKB is to the style. the KJKB people deny that this is an accutrate description, and that these things are important to them.

-KJKB is not appropriate for young children because they need something with more substance. You later define "substance" as teaching responsibility for the knowledge, with no moral code.
Again, you are not in a position to evaluate the amount of "substance" there is in KJKB. The people who do train it say that it does teach these things.
-David

Exactly! Whoever said that training in self-defence and character development were mutually exclusive? Where did MichiganTKD get this idea?

MichiganTKD, I too have met some AWESOME TKD stylists and more than a few crappy "reality stylists". However, KJB is nearly as old an art as TKD and TSD. The internal combustion engine predates both systems - if not the techniques in those systems.

BTW, I have studied both traditional Korean MA (TKD and TSD) and Shotokan. The forms were not only similiar - in some cases they were IDENTICAL. Why TKD's roots need to be modified is beyond me. The history of TKD is the history of all MA - influence, assimilation, and the development of a unique identity. I can imagine why many Koreans, particularly older ones, given the brutal occupation of their country by the Japanese (1905-1945), wish to minimize the origin of their national MA; however, WW2 is long over and most on this board are Westerners. We can look at this history objectively, can't we?

 

[MichiganTKD]

I never realized that being able to win a NHB match was the mark of a good martial artists. Those guys are not martial artists anyway, they are fighters.

Kajukenbo was formed for one reason-self defense. As such, it is a cafeteria style. Its founders picked and chose techniques from different styles. Now, perhaps you could argue that since Tae Kwon Do was developed out of 9 Kwans in Korea, there is no difference. But there are difference, particularly in approach.

First, Tae Kwon Do was formed to unify the Kwans, as opposed to picking and choosing technique (cherry picking). This was by order of the Korean gov't.

Second, leaders of Tae Kwon Do purposely gave TKD a set of cultural and moral principles, manners, and etiquette. It is a DO art after all. The founders of KJKB didn't care about etiquette, manners, or culture. Strictly self defense. Like learning how to use a gun with the awesome responsibility that comes with it.

Third, Tae Kwon Do was designed to give pride back to a nation that had been stripped of it. As such, it was developed into an awesome fighting art that Koreans, and later others from outside Korea, could be proud to say they practiced.

Fourth, unlike KJKB Tae Kwon Do has always encouraged its students to be upright people, models of society. Won Kuk Lee specificially taught only those who would be model citizens.

Having an opening prayer, while admirable, is not the same thing as encouraging honor, integrity, and social pride.

 

[The Kai]

First off there is a strong connection between TKD and Shotokan, so unifying the 9 kwans techniques was probably not all that diverse, Since the TKD guys were basically doing Shotkan. Call it unifying or cherry picking whatever, ion both cases you have a mass of info that you cut down to a resonable amount. You can keep the effective techniques or not.
Wheather you like it or not the same tenets are being espoused in a KJKB School, sometimes not as vocal. Not caring about ettiquette and acting out foriegn, half understood rituals are 2 seperate things.
Having pride in mother korea is not real big on my list
Every Martial art encourages right behavior, there are some fine examples and some bad apples in all arts

 

[John Bishop]

I never realized that being able to win a NHB match was the mark of a good martial artists. Those guys are not martial artists anyway, they are fighters.

Kajukenbo was formed for one reason-self defense. As such, it is a cafeteria style. Its founders picked and chose techniques from different styles. Now, perhaps you could argue that since Tae Kwon Do was developed out of 9 Kwans in Korea, there is no difference. But there are difference, particularly in approach.

First, Tae Kwon Do was formed to unify the Kwans, as opposed to picking and choosing technique (cherry picking). This was by order of the Korean gov't.

Second, leaders of Tae Kwon Do purposely gave TKD a set of cultural and moral principles, manners, and etiquette. It is a DO art after all. The founders of KJKB didn't care about etiquette, manners, or culture. Strictly self defense. Like learning how to use a gun with the awesome responsibility that comes with it.

Third, Tae Kwon Do was designed to give pride back to a nation that had been stripped of it. As such, it was developed into an awesome fighting art that Koreans, and later others from outside Korea, could be proud to say they practiced.

Fourth, unlike KJKB Tae Kwon Do has always encouraged its students to be upright people, models of society. Won Kuk Lee specificially taught only those who would be model citizens.

Having an opening prayer, while admirable, is not the same thing as encouraging honor, integrity, and social pride.

I really don't know what your personal problem is with Kajukenbo. I don't even know what your experience and exposure to it has been, for you to form such a strong opinion about what it is and what it isn't.
And if your going to argue about the good and bad points of Tae Kwon Do vs. Kajukenbo, then feel free to also discuss the bad points about Tae Kwon Do. Things like 9 year old black belts.
The McDojo's that cross rank anyone and everyone, or turn out black belts in 12 months.
Turning a martial art into nothing but a sport.
The corruption at the top, with some of it's leaders being prosecuted for embezzlement of Olympic training funds.
The strong possibility of Tae Kwon Do being removed from the Olympics, etc. etc.
Or you can just get back on topic, since nobody asked for a comparison of Kajukenbo to Tae Kwon Do.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I never realized that being able to win a NHB match was the mark of a good martial artists. Those guys are not martial artists anyway, they are fighters.

Kajukenbo was formed for one reason-self defense. As such, it is a cafeteria style. Its founders picked and chose techniques from different styles. Now, perhaps you could argue that since Tae Kwon Do was developed out of 9 Kwans in Korea, there is no difference. But there are difference, particularly in approach.

First, Tae Kwon Do was formed to unify the Kwans, as opposed to picking and choosing technique (cherry picking). This was by order of the Korean gov't.

Second, leaders of Tae Kwon Do purposely gave TKD a set of cultural and moral principles, manners, and etiquette. It is a DO art after all. The founders of KJKB didn't care about etiquette, manners, or culture. Strictly self defense. Like learning how to use a gun with the awesome responsibility that comes with it.

Third, Tae Kwon Do was designed to give pride back to a nation that had been stripped of it. As such, it was developed into an awesome fighting art that Koreans, and later others from outside Korea, could be proud to say they practiced.

Fourth, unlike KJKB Tae Kwon Do has always encouraged its students to be upright people, models of society. Won Kuk Lee specificially taught only those who would be model citizens.

Having an opening prayer, while admirable, is not the same thing as encouraging honor, integrity, and social pride.

I must say, that your post is one of the most arrogant and ignorant I have seen on this forum.

"NHB" is a sport just like Olympic Tae Kwon Do. It is at least as much an indication of martial arts effectiveness as TKD competition. I would argue that MMA competition is more demanding than TKD competition and requires a higher level of training and dedication.

As to your first point, are you arguing that the Korean Gov't's political decision to unify the Kwans' similar arts--including everything good and bad-- produces a better martial art than KJKB founders street-savvy cherry-picked amalgamation of diverse arts? That is a tremendous demonstration of faith in the Korean Government and it's political processes.

As to your second point, KJKB people have ethics as well. Their leaders are not plagued by scandal like TKD leaders in Korea. The commercialization of TKD does not speak to well for the founders' lasting impact in establishing a "Do".

As to your third point, I agree, the main point of TKD is to build a false sense of confidence from those who have not explored lower-cost higher-reward alternatives.

As to your 4th point, you need to get out more. There are good and bad people in every walk of life--including TKD. A few empty pledges and dojang slumber parties are not evidence of TKD's moral superiority.

As to your final point, KJKB practitioners say the prayer as an affirmation that they are answerable to a hgiher authority for their actions. To whom are TKD people answerable? To their imprisoned leaders in Korea? The Korean Gov't who united the Kwan's? Or are TKD people really deeply in debt to the uniform suppliers who dye all those belts you guys get every 3 months?

 

[DavidCC]

I never realized that being able to win a NHB match was the mark of a good martial artists. Those guys are not martial artists anyway, they are fighters.

Kajukenbo was formed for one reason-self defense. As such, it is a cafeteria style. Its founders picked and chose techniques from different styles.

That was where they started! Then they worked hard to unify those various fruits into one sweet cherry pie.

The founders of KJKB didn't care about etiquette, manners, or culture. Strictly self defense.
[\QUOTE]

What is your source???? You continue to assert this but how do you know it?? People that practice Kajukenbo today say that you are wrong, their proof is that they do it.

Fourth, unlike KJKB Tae Kwon Do has always encouraged its students to be upright people, models of society.
[\QUOTE]

"unlike KJKB"... what is your source?


Like I said before, you should examine yourself and see where this hostility comes from.

 

[The Kai]

Personally I think TKD really only promotes the moral superioty of not asking questions of your estemmed korean leaders.

Look at how the Koreans have tried to rewrite the history of TKD, but most TKD practioners even those who stick around longer than the 18 months it took them to get thier Black belt swallow this tripe!!

 

[47MartialMan]

Personally I think TKD really only promotes the moral superioty of not asking questions of your estemmed korean leaders.

Hmmmn, like a religious cult?

The thing I dislike is that US TKD schools display the Korean flag. I'm sorry, unless the practices are in a UN building, I don't see the need to display another nation's flag like this.

Then if this is the case, Kung Fu schools should display communist China's flag.

Or-

Brazil's Flag,

Indonesia Flag

Japan's Flag...

etc...

 

[MichiganTKD]

Actually it is common for a traditional school, whatever style, to display the flag of the country from which the art came out of respect. You are not deferring to another country, you are paying respect to where the art came from. If you refuse to display the flag of the country that originated your art, you are more narrowminded than I am. Japanese karate schools display the Japanese flag alongside the American flag. The home flag is to the left. It is a matter of respecting the country that gave you the art you practice.
I actually have a bigger problem with people that practice, say, a Korean martial art but will not display the Korean flag with the American flag than I do practicing something like Kajukenbo. If practicing KJKB makes you happy, have at it.

 

[Hollywood1340]

I've read this thread with much intrest. I'm glad to see we have someone who knows everything about TKD, and KJKB. You should have stopped by the HKD boards when they blew, could ahve used you. And as a fellow Taekata, you're making our art look REAL good right now.