What do you think about Kajukenbo?

[The Kai]

Like Kaju Mon said there is all the aspects of the Martial Arts in KajuKenbo/Kenpo arts. Were'nt all arts originally designed for self defense?

Kajukenpo/Kenpo is a throw back to the jutsu arts. Please look at the difference between Judo and JuJuitsu, Aikido and AikiJutsu. The Okinwan art of Karate jutsu is more of a fighting art thatn the Karate Do idea of the japanese(Which put perfection of character first). TKD has its roots in KarateDo, not Karate Jutsu.
All strike based systems do 80 percent the same thing, the emphasis is different. When you drive a car do you pick the best looking car or the one that works the best?

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'm glad to see that a few posters have tried to get this back to the original question of the thread.
For those that study Kajukenbo, please tell us of the nebifits of this art for the original poster. Also if you feel their might be a negitive please also tell us of that .
This thread is about Kajukenbo please keep it to that

 

[masherdong]

I agree. I also already gave my input on Kajukenbo.

 

[Michael Billings]

Great post KajuMom. And accurate from my observations over the past 3 or 4 decades.

-Michael

 

[TonyM.]

I'm a hung ga person that used to practice the jutsu arts. In my 38 years of training, sparring and fighting my toughest opponents have been kajukenbo folks, then kempo, then tang soo do ect. so on and so on I have nothing but respect for kajukenbo. Had I not had years of training in gong fu and ju jutsu I may have chosen it for myself.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

When you drive a car do you pick the best looking car or the one that works the best?

Some people like flashy expensive cars, and some people like inexpensive practical cars. There is no right or wrong in that so long as it suits you and gets you to where you want to go. :asian: I think it's important to remember that we should choose an art/school that suits us as individuals. We all have opinions based on our different experiences, we are lucky to have so many great choices, but ultimately if you are comfortable in the school, and with the teacher and with what is being taught than your journey will be a good one.

MJ

 

[MichiganTKD]

What I mean by "substance" is this:

Practicing a style that teaches techniques purely for self defense (in other words no concern for tradition, manners, etiquette, respect, and culture) is akin to learning how to use a gun without learning respect for human life, understanding what a gun is capable of, why you should not use it unless absolutely necessary. You are learning a powerful weapon, but with great power comes great responsibility. If you teach the use of the weapon, you have an obligation to teach that responsibility.

Now the point could be made "well that is the parents' job", and to a certain extent you'd be right. Ideally that's the way it works. Ideally. Parents are hung up on sex ed. What makes you think they can teach issues equally as important? Too many parents pass the buck because they cannot or choose not to accept this responsibility.

If you are teaching use of a weapon, whether it is the sword, gun, or human body, you have an ethical and moral obligation to teach the responsibilities and obligations that go with learning that weapon. Traditional martial arts (especially those ending in DO) teach this obligation. KJKB does not concern itself with these deeper issues. It is concerned only with self defense. That, to me, is a lack of substance. The fact that it contains effective self defense and technique is irrelevant. Someone who is a master gunfighter with no code of ethical and moral conduct is still a thug.

 

[The Kai]

KaJu has traditions, ettiquette, respect and etc.. Some are westerized (the KaJuKenpo Prayer), some are hawaiinian, some are from the older parent systems.

AQagian if you are gonna fight, fight to win. Not fight to look good, or to make your teacher proud.Fight to go home. Do not fight out of benevolence for the other person, but fear for your own well being.
training can be modern and at the same time have substance. Why is it thought the only deep arts are ones were you can't speak the language??

 

[Blindside]

KJKB does not concern itself with these deeper issues. It is concerned only with self defense. That, to me, is a lack of substance.

Didn't we used to have a "head slamming into wall" smiley?

Obviously our experiences with Kajukenbo differ, I found my training to cover those areas which you say it lacks. Have you actually ever trained in kaju, or are you speaking from an outsiders perspective?

Lamont

 

[Michael Billings]

Please stick to the topic. If you want to continue a debate about the history or traditions of Kaju, please start another thread and do not contaminate this one with this conflict.

-Michael Billings-
--MT Super Moderator--

 

[John Bishop]

Looking to get into martial arts for my son and myself.I want to take something that is very diverse.I understand what works in actual street fights and am looking for a style that incorperates striking but also doesnt forget the importance of grappling.Something that is a complete art.What martial art exists that is actually practical for street fighting/defense.Which teaches all aspects together?There are many Kajukenbo schools in my area.What are your impressions of Kajukenbo?I live 30 minutes from Fairfield,Vallejo,Stockton,Lodi,Antioch in California.Does anyone know of any well respected schools in my area I should check out?Any info will be greatly appreciated.

I've avoided commenting on this question, since I would obviously be biased in my opinion. And, I've also been out of town for the last 7 days.
But there appears to be misunderstandings concerning Kajukenbo's place as a "traditional martial art".
We consider Kajukenbo to be the first American Martial Art, founded in the American Territory of Hawaii in 1947.
We consider it to be a "traditional martial art", in that the philosophy of Kajukenbo follows the Asian martial arts philosopies of training for the purpose of perfecting the practitioners body, mind, and spirit. We stress Asian traditions in our class structure; uniforms, earning belt ranks, and showing honor and respect to all practitioners and seniors. We also follow the Hawaiian tradition of "Ohana", in that all Kajukenbo practitioners, no matter what branch, association, affliation, etc., are family, and the head of that family is Sijo Emperado.
As to the techniques of Kajukenbo, I can only speak for the "Original Method". It is a mixed martial art which adds techniques from judo, jujitsu, kung fu, tang soo do, escrima, and western boxing, to the base art of Kara-ho Kenpo. It was designed to meet the self defense needs of the time, long after swords, spears, and armor disapeared. Hence the absence of weapons training.
Obviously no one can create a perfect martial art that has a answer for every self defense scenerio, but the Kajukenbo founders tried. They knew that to only be able to punch and kick, or only grapple and throw, etc., left weaknesses in your defenses. They were right then, and they are still right today. Everyone who wants to be more versatile in their defense abilities either cross trains, or looks for a system that is diverse in it's training. And Kajukenbo is a diverse system where techniques flow from blocking, striking, kicking, throwing, locking, and grappling. Whatever is needed to defend against the attack.
Now a system is only as good as it's instructors, and the effort the student puts into his/her training. In your area (San Francisco Bay area of California) are some of the best instructors in the whole Kajukenbo system. So visit their schools and pick one. I would suggest you visit Emil Bautista's, Alan Reyes's, and David Amiccucci's schools first.
I know it may appear off topic to discuss whether Kajukenbo is a "traditional art" or not, but I think in selecting any school you need to look at everything about the school/system. Is it traditional, non-traditional, sport oriented, self defense oriented, family oriented, business oriented, etc, etc.? These and many other factors are all things to be considered in selecting a school/system. The reasons for training are differant for everyone, so look at the whole picture before you decide what suits you.

 

[MichiganTKD]

First, a martial art put together from various Asian fighting styles is NOT an American martial art. It may have started in Hawaii, but starting it a U.S state does not make an American martial art.
Second, by taking the "best techniques" from different systems, you are essentially saying "None of these by themselves are good enough. We will take what we think are the best techniques and put them together into one system" .
I'd be interested to hear what Funakoshi, Miyagi, or Oyama thought about karate not being effective by itself.

I'd be interested to hear what Anton Giessink or Jimmy Pedro thought about judo not being effective.

I'd like to hear what the Kenpo people think about their style not being effective enough by itself.

Ali, Frazier, de la Hoya, and Foreman sure showed how ineffective boxing is, didn't they?

I agree with the quote from Glad2beHere: If you want my art's techniques, you study my art warts and all.

 

[John Bishop]

First, a martial art put together from various Asian fighting styles is NOT an American martial art. It may have started in Hawaii, but starting it a U.S state does not make an American martial art.
Second, by taking the "best techniques" from different systems, you are essentially saying "None of these by themselves are good enough. We will take what we think are the best techniques and put them together into one system" .
I'd be interested to hear what Funakoshi, Miyagi, or Oyama thought about karate not being effective by itself.

I'd be interested to hear what Anton Giessink or Jimmy Pedro thought about judo not being effective.

I'd like to hear what the Kenpo people think about their style not being effective enough by itself.

Ali, Frazier, de la Hoya, and Foreman sure showed how ineffective boxing is, didn't they?

I agree with the quote from Glad2beHere: If you want my art's techniques, you study my art warts and all.

Everyone is welcomed to their own opinions. To compare sports with self defense systems is like comparing apples to oranges.
And to assume that you have to have been a Asian master to develop a effective martial art is also a incorrect asumption.

Oh by the way, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do came from Shotokan, so is it wrong to call them Korean systems?
And also, the founders you listed all studied more then one system, and combined techniques from them into their own arts.
But that's another topic, so we'll leave that for future discussions.

 

[Goldendragon7]

First, a martial art put together from various Asian fighting styles is NOT an American martial art.

Soooooooo then the founder of "Shotokan" (G.F.) can't really call it a Japanese martial art then since he took the base material from Okinawa, right?

It may have started in Hawaii, but starting it a U.S state does not make an American martial art.

If that's where it started and formulated..... then it very well Could Be! Just look back at all the history of other systems and tell me the difference.

I'd be interested to hear what Funakoshi, Miyagi, or Oyama thought about karate not being effective by itself.

Yes, I would too..... they probably would say.... "shush up"....... before we get exposed for doing the same thing!!

I agree with the quote from Glad2beHere: If you want my art's techniques, you study my art warts and all.

Me too

 

[47MartialMan]

Everyone is welcomed to their own opinions. To compare sports with self defense systems is like comparing apples to oranges.
And to assume that you have to have been a Asian master to develop a effective martial art is also a incorrect asumption.

I had that same debate when I was young with my father. After he accepted me practcing martial arts(he didnt like thiongs foreign-cultured and it was pushed by my mother), one of my instrcutors was a black man. Woe, that was far worse for him to handle as he sterotyped Asians as the ones whom were better at it and could only teach it.

Oh by the way, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do came from Shotokan, so is it wrong to call them Korean systems? And also, the founders you listed all studied more then one system, and combined techniques from them into their own arts.

If it was taken from somewhere and practiced by a new culture or country, I guess you can name it per that header. Like Russian Judo-example. The problem I see in the US, is that cultures want to relate to their origin (not birthplace) first then their citizenship. For examples; Irish-Amercians, African-Amercians, Latin-Americans, etc.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Actually, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do did NOT come from Shotokan, in the sense that they are sub-arts of Shotokan. There is a Shotokan influence in each, but Tae Kwon Do is not Korean Shotokan. Never has been. But that is a different thread.
Also, Tae Kwon Do was not founded by masters saying "we're going to take techniques from Tae Kyun, Shotokan, kung fu, and whatever else." Each master had their own background that they drew upon, but it was not a conscious decision to blend styles, unlike Kajukenbo. Each Kwan, with their favored techniques, had already distinguished itself. The KTA was formed by the top 9 Kwans. Each had slight differences in technique and philosophy, but nothing radically different.
Does TKD have various influences? Sure, but it is the result of natural evolution, not trying to combine 4-5 different arts to get the best of all worlds. Works with animals, not so well with people.

 

[47MartialMan]

First, a martial art put together from various Asian fighting styles is NOT an American martial art. It may have started in Hawaii, but starting it a U.S state does not make an American martial art.

Why not? Other countries had taken American ideas on other subjects and call it their own. An American Martial Art is one created and/or practice by Americans. Other Asian countries took from other countries and call methods their own. China took from India. Okinawa took from China. Japan took from Okinawa and China. Korea took from China and Japan. Martial arts have been a huge melting pot and one can call a martial art in accordance to the founder or location of a style's created birth place.

Second, by taking the "best techniques" from different systems, you are essentially saying "None of these by themselves are good enough. We will take what we think are the best techniques and put them together into one system" . I'd be interested to hear what Funakoshi, Miyagi, or Oyama thought about karate not being effective by itself.

These masters, themselves taken other arts that they had studied and combine such to their own design and style.

I'd be interested to hear what Anton Giessink or Jimmy Pedro thought about judo not being effective.

I'd like to hear what the Kenpo people think about their style not being effective enough by itself.

Ali, Frazier, de la Hoya, and Foreman sure showed how ineffective boxing is, didn't they?

I dont think the point of combining arts to form another is out of disrepect or to demonstrate how ineffective those were. But things have to envolve per a given need.

Nice posting John Bishop, you have cleared up many things that I had not realized about Kajukenbo. I only wish there was a instructor near me.

 

[Danjo]

Actually, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do did NOT come from Shotokan, in the sense that they are sub-arts of Shotokan. There is a Shotokan influence in each, but Tae Kwon Do is not Korean Shotokan. Never has been. But that is a different thread.
Also, Tae Kwon Do was not founded by masters saying "we're going to take techniques from Tae Kyun, Shotokan, kung fu, and whatever else." Each master had their own background that they drew upon, but it was not a conscious decision to blend styles, unlike Kajukenbo. Each Kwan, with their favored techniques, had already distinguished itself. The KTA was formed by the top 9 Kwans. Each had slight differences in technique and philosophy, but nothing radically different.
Does TKD have various influences? Sure, but it is the result of natural evolution, not trying to combine 4-5 different arts to get the best of all worlds. Works with animals, not so well with people.

This is not accurate in the least. Read the multi part article about TKD in Classical Fighting Arts Magazine for your true history on this art.

Funikoshi blended Naha-Te, Shuri-Te and Kodokan Judo in order to make Shotokan. Perhaps he thought that no one was effective enough by itself?

Oyama also mixed various styles of Karate and added Judo in order to make Kyokushinkai.

Also, If you think that mixing techniques from various styles is not a good idea, take a look at the UFC etc. No one gets by on one style alone anymore. If you're not versed in multiple ranges, you're dead. When, for instance, did a TKD guy ever win one of those tournements?

 

[The Kai]

Man, if you buy that line about TKD or TSD not coming from Shotokan, it should be easy to get you to believe anything

 

[MichiganTKD]

Classical Fighting Arts Magazine is a magazine dedicated to Japanese styles. Not to say it is a rag, because it is not. However, their attitude toward Tae Kwon Do is slightly above contemptuous. In their mind, TKD is nothing more than Korean Shotokan.
However, I stand behind my opinion that Tae Kwon Do is not, and was never, merely Korean Shotokan. Even starting with obvious Japanese influences, its Grandmasters made a conscious choice to have Tae Kwon Do establish its own identity.
But again, the coming together of the various Kwans and Masters was largely "encouraged" by the Korean gov't which wanted to see a unified art rather than a fragmented style. If you didn't join, you lost your Dan recognition. It was not brought about to pick and choose the best techniques of various styles. That is one of the main differences.