Weight lifting useless?

[Brother John]

• Lift moderately heavy weights (Approx. 70% of the 1RM or 3RM -- one rep maximum or theree rep maximum. This is the amount of weight the trainee can lift with good form one to three times successfully) to stimulate bulk/lean muscle development (hypertrophy). This will generally include bodybuilding protocols. Here is what most people identify as weight training and if you stay here for too long, it may have a negative effect on your martial arts training. You may become too big, too slow, and lose flexibility.

You reply was informed and intelligent!!! Thank you.
BUT: I must disagree with this one element...
it is a MYTH that weight training for muscular strength will adversley effect flexibility. It's an even greater myth that it will adversly effect Speed!
Neglecting flexibility exercises will, but weight training will merely set your current levels of flexibility into stone if you NEGLECT flexibility. Check out Tom Platz, one of the strongest and most muscular set of Legs the world has ever seen!!! A three time (if memory serves) Mr. Universe and an Olymian Bodybuilder.... yet from day one till today he can place his forehead on the lower part of his shins, with knees locked, and stay there as long as he pleases. Because he didn't neglect flexibility. INFACT his leg development was BETTER because he didn't neglect that aspect.

and...what creates "Speed"...
A Fast & strong muscular contraction.
How can greater strength cause a loss in speed then?

Your Brother
John

 

[Zujitsuka]

I perhaps wasn't clear in my post. I'm not saying that weight lifting in general will make you slow, but if you spend too much time doing the traditional bodybuilding type of lifts (e.g. bicep curls), it seems that the trainee will shorten his/her muscles and compromise flexibility. This will make one more suceptible to strains, tears, and other injuries. A shortened, tightly wound muscle just cannot move that quickly and will have a compromised range of motion. This is why Pilates and Yoga are great to add to one's training regimen.

Once you're pumped up, you have to move into doing lifts to develop explosiveness/power/speed/rate of force development. These lifts are generally done with a lighter load that can be moved fast. Traditional bodybuilding protocols are not designed to enhance ones speed. Coach Charles Staley has written numerous articles on this.

There are different types of strength. Here are a few:

Relative -- how your strength compares to those in your age bracket and weight class

Absolute -- how much you can lift in an all-out effort

Speed --
(a) Explosiveness - how quickly you can turn a bunch of your muscles and keep them turned on (think of lighting a match)
(b) Starting - how quickly you can ignite your muscles (think of a camera flash)

Local muscular endurance -- How long can your muscles do redundant movements over and over again before giving out (e.g. a judoka that can retain a strong grip through the course of a match).

Again, don't forget that you can be the strongest, best conditioned person out there but if your martial arts technique is weak, well...

Don't neglect your martial arts training. It must take precedence over all else.

Here is a paraphrased quote of the late great founder of Sanuces Jujutsu, Grandmaster Moses Powell said, "I've seen some cats do some crazy stuff man, but can they fight?"

Peace & blessings,

 

[Hannya]

Makes sense Zuji. I noticed a loss of flexability myself recently and was curious if it just came with the territory of bodybuilding or not. Didn't even think about the shortening of the muscles that could have occured, which would explain a couple injuries. Wouldn't excercising properly and doing the full range of motion prevent the muscle from doing this? Also would you recommend mixing bodybuilding type lifts with explosive type lifts?

 

[samurai69]

I perhaps wasn't clear in my post. I'm not saying that weight lifting in general will make you slow, but if you spend too much time doing the traditional bodybuilding type of lifts (e.g. bicep curls), it seems that the trainee will shorten his/her muscles and compromise flexibility. This will make one more suceptible to strains, tears, and other injuries. A shortened, tightly wound muscle just cannot move that quickly and will have a compromised range of motion. This is why Pilates and Yoga are great to add to one's training regimen.

Once you're pumped up, you have to move into doing lifts to develop explosiveness/power/speed/rate of force development. These lifts are generally done with a lighter load that can be moved fast. Traditional bodybuilding protocols are not designed to enhance ones speed. Coach Charles Staley has written numerous articles on this.

There are different types of strength. Here are a few:

Relative -- how your strength compares to those in your age bracket and weight class

Absolute -- how much you can lift in an all-out effort

Speed --
(a) Explosiveness - how quickly you can turn a bunch of your muscles and keep them turned on (think of lighting a match)
(b) Starting - how quickly you can ignite your muscles (think of a camera flash)

Local muscular endurance -- How long can your muscles do redundant movements over and over again before giving out (e.g. a judoka that can retain a strong grip through the course of a match).

Again, don't forget that you can be the strongest, best conditioned person out there but if your martial arts technique is weak, well...

Don't neglect your martial arts training. It must take precedence over all else.

Here is a paraphrased quote of the late great founder of Sanuces Jujutsu, Grandmaster Moses Powell said, "I've seen some cats do some crazy stuff man, but can they fight?"

Peace & blessings,

Lets look at this bit first

it seems that the trainee will shorten his/her muscles and compromise flexibility.

A muscle will only shorten through its contraction on extension it lengthens, as long as proper stretching (even minor stretching) is done there will be no loss in flexibility

This will make one more suceptible to strains, tears, and other injuries

Infact an over stretched muscle is more likeley to be suceptible to strains and tears as the newly stretched part of a muscle is at its weakest, proper strenght training will make those weaker areas strong --------------- imagine the red areas as being the newley stretched areas, they are the weak links to the chain, buy gradually strengthening them (turning them black) through weight training you are effectively strengthening the whole chan, which will improve on the flexibility too.

A shortened, tightly wound muscle just cannot move that quickly and will have a compromised range of motion.

Untrue, infact a tightly wound muscle will move faster and with more power than a loose un strengthened muscle, try winding a couple of elastic bands up and watch them un twist

Pilates and Yoga are great to add to one's training regimen.

You are absolutely correct, but not for the reason you state, pilates helps strengthen the muscles through resistance (have you not seen the reformer and other pilates equipment) Yoga is an additional form of stretching

Once you're pumped up, you have to move into doing lifts to develop explosiveness/power/speed/rate of force development. These lifts are generally done with a lighter load that can be moved fast. Traditional bodybuilding protocols are not designed to enhance ones speed. Coach Charles Staley has written numerous articles on this.

I dont think anybody here mentioned "bodybuilding protocols" but if they did it doesnt matter, there are many different ways of training with weights and there are many different ways for BBers to train with weights, this is not the issue.
The pump you talk about happens wether its through weights or bodyweight, its the blood in the muscles increasing to help oxygenate the used muscle.
Explosivness is attained by using the weights explosively as are speed and power, hence the sport "POWER LIFTING"

I think this is one of those area where facts for weightlifting out way those againsts, but blinkered thinking again gets in the way of proper training

If you really want to improve in your chosen art the you really should use a compination of proper weight training, body weight training and good flexibility training (yoga too)

as i said earlier in this thread, I am 42 years old, i train with weights regularly and have done since i was 15 or 16, i have trained in the martial arts almost as long, my punching speed and power are high up there with guys far younger, I can still perform box splits and can comfortably kick the heavy bag for far longer and with more power than some of my younger friends (10+ years younger)

 

[samurai69]

. Wouldn't excercising properly and doing the full range of motion prevent the muscle from doing this? Also would you recommend mixing bodybuilding type lifts with explosive type lifts?

Yes and Yes



.

 

[Zujitsuka]

This is a great discussion folks.

Cool Sumurai69. We really don't disagree. One has to mix it up as there is no "magic bullet." I myself do various bodyweight exercises and use weights, stability balls, and other equipment. Like you Samurai, I'm no spring chicken myself at 36 years of age, but I'm faster, stronger, have better wind, and am much more durable than most of my classmates. Nothing special about me. I have to attribute my performance to committing to doing my homework (i.e. practicing martial arts drills at home - not just in class) and to the scientific approach that I apply to exercise. Thank you Charles Staley, Tom Kurz, Pavel Tsatsouline, J.C. Santana, Mike Mahler, Beth Shaw, and others. I just applied what they teach and got great results.

However, when weight training, you have to build a solid foundation with bodybuilding protocols before moving to quick lifts and plyometrics. Think of yourself as an athlete on an eight week training cycle. You'll develop different types of strength in a scientific sequence and at the very end of the cycle you will be in peak condition for competition (i.e. "the fight"). This approach is called periodized training. Please refer to Charles Staley's book The Science of Martial Arts Training.

Periodized training is key as it will help you get the best results and help you less prone to injuries. Trust me, a new trainee can't jump right into explosive lifts or plyometrics. Those joints will indeed suffer bigtime!

In regards to flexibility, if your muscles aren't stretched enough, you can pull them. If they are overstretched, you can injure yourelf as well. What a lot of martial artists don't consider is that when you have extreme flexibility, your muscles will actually be weaker as they don't have that rebounding or snap effect. Tom Kurz talks about this in his book Stretching Scientifically, or visit his website at www.stadion.com.

Yoga isn't only for stretching. There are some forms of yoga like Power Yoga, YogaFit, YogaBand (using resistance bands), and Iron Yoga (using light dumbbells) that definitely help with strength. I really can't speak on the Pilates machines as I've never used them. I've only done mat exercises to help with core strength. My posture aslo improved when I started doing Pilates and Yoga - I "grew" a half an inch in height (spine has been straightened out).

All the best folks.

 

[Brother John]

Wouldn't excercising properly and doing the full range of motion prevent the muscle from doing this? Also would you recommend mixing bodybuilding type lifts with explosive type lifts?

Unless you go in and actually physically CUT a muscles fibres....it will NOT shorten. Muscle "shortening" is done through damage (cutting, like w/ a scalple) or through acute atrophy (Degeneration: the OPPOSITE of building strength and size/density).
The thing is there's two elements to keeping our bodies Truly flexible: There's the range of motion that your limbs can be forced to move to, this is what I refer to as "positional flexibility". Then there is "Dynamic flexibility" which is the range of motion that your muscular strength can reach through volutary action (not velocity or force from an outside source). Positional flexibility is good, it's important, but the greatest good we can achieve is through working toward dynamic strength....and the only way to aquire it is through working to build strength through the greatest range of motion possible....
Weight Training.
PROPER weight training, wether toward the end of Bodybuilding OR Power-lifting.....or whatever, will always include the use of our limbs FULL range of motion. Improper training is Never, ever, advisable; when doing anything.

The thought that weight training....at Any extent...will produce "Shortened" muscles or a restrictive range of motion is an absolute myth. Again: Why would Olympic trainers and the trainers of professional athletes rely SO MUCH on weight training if it did anything like this? These people's livelihood, their career and their reputations DEPEND on them using the BEST methods and staying totally up to date on the best of research in the field of exercise physiology...

IF Matt Furry's methods were as good as the M.A. fad's exponents would have us believe, then he would be FILTHY rich and his videos wouldn't be shot in his living room with his buddies.

PLEASE Don't get me wrong, they are good.... but they don't present ANYTHING that anyone with a smattering of college level physical education doesn't already know & understand fully. Infact, his information on exercise is pretty rudimentary. Useable, good, effective....but it's just one more approach amongst other very useable approaches. Many in the field of exercise physiology that have investigated Furry's presentation feel that his methods are lacking. ME? I've seen it before, but I like the way he brings it all together and think it's worth looking into. That's why I've obtained the material.

I DO 110% agree with the assertion that the most important thing we can do, as martial artists, is to NEVER relent in our pursuit of excellence w/in our technical expression of our arts!!! That is KEY. But the forms of exercise we use to support and elevate our abilities is important too. Knowledge and skill is CRUCIAL, but the physical qualities that we can put into play is also very important.

PROPER weight training, according to the many professional's who job it is to find the best means of elevating human physical performance, can not be beat in regards to building muscular strength, explosiveness (Known in the field as "Speed-Strength"), effective range of motion and durability.
It Cannot and will not 'shorten' or "tighten" a muscle group. Increase it's ability to contract Fully? Absolutely, and then some. But in order to truly exert force in a direction you must be able to control and relax the opposing muscles opposite the contracting muscles (known as the eccentric contraction)...this leads to better muscular control and the ability to better RELAX a muscle group. This too adds to flexibility and elasticity, as well as speed through reduced 'muscular drag' or opposing tension!

(Weight training is also excellent for strengthening bones!!)

Your Brother
John

 

[Shirt Ripper]

Good discussion folks. Only skimmed the last few posts but good points Brother John.

There is no reason, barring an interest in "getting big" or the sport of bodybuilding, for any martial artist to "train like a body builder." As to whether or not one should include explosive movements in one's training...of course. That's what is should consist of! How does having well defined and bi upper arms or quadriceps help a martial artist?! They don't, and training that way without the interests listed above is silly. Bodybuilding is probably the most non-functional activity one can take up if training for another sport or activity. Train for power and perhaps "absolute" strength not simply for hypertrophy and expect that since your muscles are bigger, you are better (or even stronger!!!). Another typical philosophy of bodybuilding, especially low level bodybuilding is isolating certain muscle groups. How does that apply to anything? It doesn't.

The solution: Design your program however you want. At the level of preparedness for resistance training most people here are at, any type of program (# of reps X # of sets) with bring adaptations to greater strength. The sets and reps are not the important thing for the detrained or untrained...it's the stress. Include multi-joint exercises like cleans, snatches, squats, overhead press, rows, etc. TRAIN for flexibity, meaning actually work on it in the weightroom or wherever. If your weight training program is hindering your performance, IT SUCKS! Honestly, that's it. A training program is supposed to make you better and if it doesn't or makes you worse, you have a bad program, period.

Bigger muscles are not necessarily stronger muscles.

Who is more functional (useful)? I'll give you a hint; It aint number three! but then who is the most muscular? Hmmm...
http://smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/28/cg_108096272_gallery__550x412.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/18/ancient.stadium/p1_nelson_all.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/mikementzer/Coleman18.jpg

 

[Zujitsuka]

Wow...

Good stuff folks.

I hope that visitors are reading the posts carefully and visiting the websites of the suggested sources/citations for clarity and for assistance in developing their own customized routines.

It seems to me that most of us agree that weight training when done properly is beneficial - as are bodyweight exercises. Also that you have to make sure that there is a flexibility component to your routine. Either one is a piece to the puzzle and not the puzzle in of itself.

Peace & blessings,

 

[samurai69]

Good discussion yes....dont have much time now, but would like to respond to the topics in the previous 3 or 4 posts....will do tomorrow



:idunno:

 

[samurai69]

Who is more functional (useful)? I'll give you a hint; It aint number three! but then who is the most muscular? Hmmm...
http://smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/28/cg_108096272_gallery__550x412.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/18/ancient.stadium/p1_nelson_all.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/mikementzer/Coleman18.jpg

Ok, just had to respond to this bit.........IMO the olyimpic lifter is probably more functionally strong, but the olympic putter is a close second, but i do have to say when ronnie won his first olympia (still a big guy, but not as big) and as a working police officer he remained functional and flexible, i remember seeing ronnie on stage performing full splits.

will respond more later, learning lots

 

[Shirt Ripper]

Ok, just had to respond to this bit.........IMO the olyimpic lifter is probably more functionally strong, but the olympic putter is a close second, but i do have to say when ronnie won his first olympia (still a big guy, but not as big) and as a working police officer he remained functional and flexible, i remember seeing ronnie on stage performing full splits.

will respond more later, learning lots

I was just showing that functionality means different things. The main point being muscluarity being decieving. Ronnie is an exception for BBers because he is really strong (not just big) and has maintained fair flexibility...just too bulky for certain things though...no denying it. The putter (Adam Nelson) stands just shy of 6 feet if I recall and can dunk a basketball, not a huge feat but impressive at 260ish. He's obviously got a build on him but he is by no means hugely muscular...just very powerful.

Pyrros Dimas (the weightlifter) is just a god is all...:uhyeah:

 

[samurai69]

I was just showing that functionality means different things. The main point being muscluarity being decieving. Ronnie is an exception for BBers because he is really strong (not just big) and has maintained fair flexibility...just too bulky for certain things though...no denying it. The putter (Adam Nelson) stands just shy of 6 feet if I recall and can dunk a basketball, not a huge feat but impressive at 260ish. He's obviously got a build on him but he is by no means hugely muscular...just very powerful.

Pyrros Dimas (the weightlifter) is just a god is all...:uhyeah:

Sure, i anderstand and was probably agreeing with you in a back handed sort of way

.

 

[Brother John]

I don't think it's really the methods used by bodybuilders that limits their levels of strength, but the fact that SO many of them seek "Mass" through the use of DRUGS instead of EARNING it inch by inch.
That's why Mentzer was one of my big idols.
Emphasized training HEAVY and HARD, but intelligently. Though for about four years (so I've heard) he did use anabolic steriods while at the height of his Pro-BB career.

Still, in my eyes...he was a man who's mass correlated very closely to his strength.
Too many bodybuilders TODAY emphasize mass and try to get there through water-volume. They end up being very aesthetically pleasing Water-bags.
POWER lifters aren't a great deal better. Strong? Yes!!!! In short bursts. Muscular endurance?
NO.
That type of training would defeat their purpose.
I think that the intelligent approach would fall between the two, something along the lines of "HIT" training.
BUT it all depends on what you need the resistance training for. FOR us martial artists, POWER training is much further off the mark than bodybuilding..... but bodybuilding 'Protocols' (as they are being refered to here) need to be geared toward strength, especially speed-strength and muscular endurance.

just some very random, probably disjointed, thoughts early in the morning.

Your Brother
John

 

[Shirt Ripper]

Sure, i anderstand and was probably agreeing with you in a back handed sort of way

.

Didn't take it as a disagreement...just thought more on it and expanded...

I don't think it's really the methods used by bodybuilders that limits their levels of strength, but the fact that SO many of them seek "Mass" through the use of DRUGS instead of EARNING it inch by inch.
That's why Mentzer was one of my big idols.
Emphasized training HEAVY and HARD, but intelligently. Though for about four years (so I've heard) he did use anabolic steriods while at the height of his Pro-BB career.

Still, in my eyes...he was a man who's mass correlated very closely to his strength.
Too many bodybuilders TODAY emphasize mass and try to get there through water-volume. They end up being very aesthetically pleasing Water-bags.
POWER lifters aren't a great deal better. Strong? Yes!!!! In short bursts. Muscular endurance?
NO.
That type of training would defeat their purpose.
I think that the intelligent approach would fall between the two, something along the lines of "HIT" training.
BUT it all depends on what you need the resistance training for. FOR us martial artists, POWER training is much further off the mark than bodybuilding..... but bodybuilding 'Protocols' (as they are being refered to here) need to be geared toward strength, especially speed-strength and muscular endurance.

just some very random, probably disjointed, thoughts early in the morning.

Your Brother
John

I'd say it's a fair bet that most pro's (particularly in bodybuilding) used/are using. So are you a proponent of HIT, as in you use it? You've been pretty successful with it? I only ask because HIT seems to be one of the big black and white issues in strength and conditioning. Your either a proponent of it or you reject it completely.
In my early days (when I had some interest in bodybuilding) I was a fan of Mentzer, which was around the time he died, so long after his competitive career, I as my studies developed I think I generally disagree with the HIT philosophy on a lot. I dunno...

 

[samurai69]

Didn't take it as a disagreement...just thought more on it and expanded...

I'd say it's a fair bet that most pro's (particularly in bodybuilding) used/are using. So are you a proponent of HIT, as in you use it? You've been pretty successful with it? I only ask because HIT seems to be one of the big black and white issues in strength and conditioning. Your either a proponent of it or you reject it completely.
In my early days (when I had some interest in bodybuilding) I was a fan of Mentzer, which was around the time he died, so long after his competitive career, I as my studies developed I think I generally disagree with the HIT philosophy on a lot. I dunno...

I have to say i never got on with HIT, however Dorian Yates'es HIT i think was a little mis-understood, and there in lies the problem i think with many of the systems, I personally am a fan of the old time lifts and lifters.

 

[Shirt Ripper]

I personally am a fan of the old time lifts and lifters.

Now you're talking my language. The biggest issue in strength and conditioning is people getting too caught up on "systems" and not simply busting tail and getting better. You've got to kind of take the Bruce Lee approach to it and "be like water." If you are tightly wound to one "system" or style of training you are missing something and limiting yourself.

 

[Shirt Ripper]

I got to thinking about an article Louie Simmons put out a while ago regarding HIT...It was March of 2001.
http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles.htm
Check out the rest of his articles too...he gives his use of many of the right ideas floating around in strength in conditioning...from Siff to Verkoshanksky to Zatiorsky.

 

[Brother John]

Nah....
I'd not call myself a "Proponent" of HIT, but it makes good sense.
At last count, 12 NFL teams, most of the NHL and lots of the NBA use it.
Infact, If memory serves, even the women's Olympic basketball team used it.

No, I'm not a hook-line-and-sinker HIT guy. I use it, but I cycle through it. I do about five weeks of it...just to REALLY shock my body into some growth. I have five phases that I cycle through. ONE of them is even HVT, the polar opposite of HIT. Then I switch it around somemore. I'm a bit more of a traditionalist usually; still like a lot of thing that Arnold put in his HUGE book. But when you're at a sticking point...there's nothin like "HIT". HARD/INTENSE...great for building power!!! But I think that TOO much of it (for me, more than 6 weeks) harms the joints and the connective tissues.... TOO much stress for tooo long.
Yates was a Hero of mine too, but check out that Pec-tear!!!! Not good.

My weight training isn't aimed at improving my martial arts, I should mention.
I don't believe in needing accelerated athleticism to make my martial arts skills effective. SKILL makes my skills effective.
I lift weights for the added strength (for doing work, my friends ALWAYS call me up to help them MOVE big things....ends up getting me more steak dinners) for my Wife (Because she likes how it makes me look/feel...and it's better to be looked over than overlooked)....and because it just plain makes me feel good to lift and see/FEEEEEL the results.

Your Brother
John

 

[Soldier]

I just saw the title of the thread was like WOW. Than I saw Matt Furey was like Oh ok now I understand. lol