Weight Lifting and Fighting

[eyebeams]

I'm speaking from a CMA fighting aspect here. Tension would most certainly not only be defined as antagonistic tension. Its just a difference in intent. Even isolated muscle force is against principle in many CMA fighting systems.

It is physically impossible to move without muscle contraction. Old CMA texts about other kinds of movement are based on poor anatomical knowledge from the period.

Thats why weight lifting can affect your fighting, you become much less sensitive to smaller amounts of force as you are used to pushing through the force of the weights. Also, resistance training and weight lifting are two different things in my book.

That hasn't been my experience as a CMA practitioner.

I think you have misunderstood my usage of the word "feel" or "soft". Again, I'm speaking from a CMA standpoint where "feel" and being "soft" are the ability to sense the slightest amount of force from your opponent and yield to it letting it go the way it is forcing thus attacking from a different angle so to speak. I would completely disagree with your definition of "softness" at least from a mantis fighting standpoint. Your definition still allows for the force of isolated muscles which is against principle. Muscle force is what we look to avoid (in a force against force situation at least). The antagonism you are so fond of is moot as I'm speaking of all muslce tension.

All movement comes from muscular contraction. When you perform a technique, you use many muscle groups in concert. When you use weights, you generally try to isolate a few muscle groups. "Softness" is just as muscular, but it is sensitive to the other person's movement and it seeks to eliminate muscular contraction which is antagonistic to the movement.

Your correct that you do not loose flexability by lifting weights, your also incorrect. Of course I didn't say anything about flexability so I'm not sure where that came from, but since we're on it, let me explain myself. I've done alot of reasearch and study into the muscles of the body and body mechanics, as I'm working towards my master's degree in physical therapy I'm forced to To be very technical its not the lifting of weights that decreases flexability, its the building of large muslces. And to be even more technical it doesn't decrease flexability at all, but increases the size of the fulcrum if you will. So while its technically correct to say weight lifting doesn't decrease flexability for all practical purposes it does. You are correct about stretching between sets which will help to combat this quite nicely, but building muslce affects flexability like it or not. You must work harder to keep or build flexability if your also building alot of muscle. "Tightness" has nothing to do with blood supply or flow. Its a byproduct of the muslces breaking down and building up. To label it as a product of increased blood supply would be a gross understatement.

First of all, it isn't really necessary to lift for muscle mass per se. You will bulk up a bit, but strength training for power isn't the same as training for mass. Powerlifters, boxers and gymnasts are not the same as bodybuilders.

I suppose you could lose flexibility from extreme bulk, but not only do you need specialized training which isn't really athletic in nature, most people won't have the interest or genetic predisposition to even get this big. But the size of the muscle does not affect the mechanism of proprioception that stretching affects. The muscle gets used to its new length in any event, through the same mechanisms.

Secondly, I'm talking about tightness that occurs during lifting, which *does* come from circulation. You are correct that this is different from the tightness that occurs during recovery.

Basically my point in this thread was to discuss this issue, I dont lift weights at all anymore, I do all bodyweight now, but I was curious as to others experiences with this issue.

In my view, the main weakness of weight training is in the recovery period and the need to return to core and stabilizing groups. If you forget the deep or small muscles you become injury prone, which is why you need a supplementary practice.
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[7starmantis]

It is physically impossible to move without muscle contraction. Old CMA texts about other kinds of movement are based on poor anatomical knowledge from the period.

OK, I have never seen texts which refering to any type of movement other than muscular, Chinese or not. However, I said nothing about movement aside from muscular movement. It seems you have your mind made up about what I am saying and so you dont read my posts anymore. Re-read, I said nothingabout moving without muscle contraction. What I did say was using muscular force to defend or perform any technique is against principles. You said "tension" was defined as antagonistic muscle groups working agianst each other, I simply said that definition would not be correct when refering to CMA fighting principles. Your trying to take what I say to an extreme to make me look incorrect, but the fact remains that using muscle to perform a technique is incorrect in "most" CMA systems. Sure you have to use skeletal muscle to move your body, but when we (as CMAist) refer to "muscling" or "using muscle to gain a technique" we are refering to the use of muscular force to overcomea resistance to said technqiue, or to simply make said technique work.

That hasn't been my experience as a CMA practitioner.

Whats that? That weight lifting can affect your feel or that lifting weights and body exercise are different things? I dont find it odd that you dont rely on sensitivity and feel like I do, many styles and teachers do not understand it or apply it. What style of CMA do you practice? Also, I wouldn't consider Kenpo a CMA, the principles are different.

All movement comes from muscular contraction. When you perform a technique, you use many muscle groups in concert. When you use weights, you generally try to isolate a few muscle groups. "Softness" is just as muscular, but it is sensitive to the other person's movement and it seeks to eliminate muscular contraction which is antagonistic to the movement.

That is simply incorrect. Like I said, we obviously practice differing styles as "softness" is not what you described. Being sensitive to the other person's movement is part of it, but that is not possible if you are applying force in a direction, regardless of how "smooth" the force may be and how cooporative the force is. This is simply something we train for in my training, the ability to yield to the smallest amount of pressure and even continue their force in the same direction after you have moved from it. Its simple action vs reaction. If your pushing your hand out in front of your chest, straight out against my own hand. If I collapse my arm and roll under your arm, you have to stop applying force, start pulling your hand back in, and meet my arm again all in the time I simply roll under your pressure and continue forward. Any muscular force forward regardless of how cooporative th emuscle are, is still a mistake in a system of "feel" and "sensitivity".

First of all, it isn't really necessary to lift for muscle mass per se. You will bulk up a bit, but strength training for power isn't the same as training for mass. Powerlifters, boxers and gymnasts are not the same as bodybuilders.

I agree with that, but you would know that if you had read this whole thread.

I suppose you could lose flexibility from extreme bulk, but not only do you need specialized training which isn't really athletic in nature, most people won't have the interest or genetic predisposition to even get this big. But the size of the muscle does not affect the mechanism of proprioception that stretching affects. The muscle gets used to its new length in any event, through the same mechanisms.

Actually, extreme is a subjective word. You do not need specialized training to increase your bulk, not at all. That is a farce. Also so is the idea that you must be genetically predisposed to building mass, simply not true at a realistic level. What exactly does proprioception have to do with this discussion? We are talking about strict actual movement, your trying to make it somethign its not. I think your confused about the affect lifting has on muscles and their affect on movement.

Secondly, I'm talking about tightness that occurs during lifting, which *does* come from circulation. You are correct that this is different from the tightness that occurs during recovery.

Well, maybe you shouldn't post things like this then :

You feel tightness while you lift as the blood supply to the muscle goes up, and afterwards as you recuperate, but weight training does not affect the range of motion in a body part at all.

Because that is what I was responding to. So, have you changed your mind on this issue, or what because you are now contradicting yourself.

In my view, the main weakness of weight training is in the recovery period and the need to return to core and stabilizing groups. If you forget the deep or small muscles you become injury prone, which is why you need a supplementary practice.

There is a recovery period for all muscular exercise, not just lifting. And core strength is important in all fascets of martial arts as much if not more than in weight lifting. However, it seems your martial arts training is your supplementary practice to lifting so I can understand your point of view, martial arts is not supplementary to me, just differences in our training, no big deal.

7sm

 

[yipman_sifu]

I told you that we are smart fighter using opponents power against them. According what you say that you cannot execute moves without muscles is silly. These moving extension/flexing muscles are all build in normal training excrsices (no weight lifting). Muscles needed for fighting are the muscles that everyone can get. What I mean is that we don't need the big muscles of the biceps and chest to be good fighters. Regarding that we don't have power OH that's a problem:ultracool. NO, punch a guy in his throat, it is more sensitive than a 2 days baby's body.

My point is fighting muscles comes and are essential, but the bodybuilding muscles are those which really makes the problem. You get heavier, slower, and bad positioning.