Practicing Forms Using Weights?

[7starmantis]

Lately I've been hearing alot about people using wrist weights, ankle weights, even weighted vests and shorts to practice forms or partner drills. What do you guys think about this, is it developing bad habits, such as causing you to focus your muscles upward, is it going to help you increase speed? What about sensitivity, what do you think about how this practice could affect sensitivity training?

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

Lately I've been hearing alot about people using wrist weights, ankle weights, even weighted vests and shorts to practice forms or partner drills. What do you guys think about this, is it developing bad habits, such as causing you to focus your muscles upward, is it going to help you increase speed? What about sensitivity, what do you think about how this practice could affect sensitivity training?

7sm

Sorry, as you know 7*, I don't practice CMA. But a good friend of mine did under a reputable instructor in China. I have heard that vests are good for developing strong stances, especially arts that utilize deep stance work, but that ankle or hand weights develop bad habits.

From my non-CMA view, I can't see how forms with handweights would help much, as the resistance is against gravity rather then the direction of the attack. I wonder if it would be any benefit to use, err....those elastic resistance thingies (basically, large rubber bands with handles), forgot what they are called. Know what I mean? I wonder if that would be a benefit to use?

Anyways, the one thing that is so neat about CMA in general is that there are such a vast multitude of training methods depending on your style. To each his own.

:asian:

 

[RHD]

Lately I've been hearing alot about people using wrist weights, ankle weights, even weighted vests and shorts to practice forms or partner drills. What do you guys think about this, is it developing bad habits, such as causing you to focus your muscles upward, is it going to help you increase speed? What about sensitivity, what do you think about how this practice could affect sensitivity training?

7sm

I wear wrist weights for certain workouts and use hand weights for others, especially tiger claw work. Sometimes the wrist weights are worn during forms practice. I hear a lot of CMA people speak against weight training, for fear that it will over develop them and somehow block thier chi flow. I think this is balony. Muscular power is an important part of all CMA's, even Tai Chi Chuan. No muscle=weakness and prone to injury.
No amount of internal training can make up for a lack of external developement, it's all a balance...One is not nearly as good as both together. I do suggest however, that if a person chooses to use weights durng forms practice, that they move slowly. Joint injuries are much more likely when one moves quickly with weights, also use lighter weights to prevent injury from the finer movments found withing CMA forms. Weights in hand while doing forms is not the same game as the gross motor skills needed for weight training in a gym. They should be for martial-functional strength rather than large biceps.

Mike

 

[someguy]

I wouldn't do weights on my arms while doing forms. I don't think forms are to develope strength. If you want to be strong then do ssstance training or something.

 

[WLMantisKid]

It's a little awkward to wear iron rings during forms practice.

But I get a good work out by sticking my arms out to the side with the weights on the very end and sinking into a super low horse stance.

I'm working on it though, one minute and im through right now though.

 

[7starmantis]

I knew RHD would have used weights being a Hung Gar guy. The weighted vests I agree with Tulisan are good for stance training, and even for overall cardio. The other weights I think can be used with slow fluid movements, but I'm concerned with how it will affect someones sensitivity or "feel".

7sm

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry, as you know 7*, I don't practice CMA. But a good friend of mine did under a reputable instructor in China. I have heard that vests are good for developing strong stances, especially arts that utilize deep stance work, but that ankle or hand weights develop bad habits.

From my non-CMA view, I can't see how forms with handweights would help much, as the resistance is against gravity rather then the direction of the attack. I wonder if it would be any benefit to use, err....those elastic resistance thingies (basically, large rubber bands with handles), forgot what they are called. Know what I mean? I wonder if that would be a benefit to use?

Anyways, the one thing that is so neat about CMA in general is that there are such a vast multitude of training methods depending on your style. To each his own.

:asian:

I wouldn't recomend it unless done rarely. You can train yourself to be slow if your not carefull.
Sean

 

[RHD]

I knew RHD would have used weights being a Hung Gar guy. The weighted vests I agree with Tulisan are good for stance training, and even for overall cardio. The other weights I think can be used with slow fluid movements, but I'm concerned with how it will affect someones sensitivity or "feel".

7sm

Ha ha! Sensitivity? That's what your training partners are for :wink1:

Anyway, I don't use weights all the time. If i practice a particular form or drill 3 times, once will be with weights.

Mike

 

[vincehardy3]

My name is Vince, and I'm new to the board. I practice CMA, and I use weights for auxiliary training. For instance, I'll use wrist/ankle weights when I'm doing forms training. Benefit: strengthens certain muscle groups, and it shows me the muscles that I'm creating unnecessary tension in. They also show me what muscles I need to relax. When I was in the Air Force I boxed when I was overseas, and our coach would have us run the steps with weights in each hand. This resistance training would enable us to keep our hands up the duration of each round. It is very hard to maintain an effective on-guard position for an extended amount of time.

But, I would suggest that if weights are utilized that the practitioner execute each technique slowly as not to develop bad habits or injuries. As one poster stated, there has to be a balance with muscle development and internal power (chi) development. A practitioner's technique will not be fully effective without this balance.



Vince

 

[7starmantis]

On behalf of the MartialTalk staff, welcome to the boards! Relax, look around and feel free to join in discussions. We keep a friendly atmosphere, so feel free to post and ask any questions if you need help. May I ask what style of CMA you practice?

I guess the general consensus is that it is good to use weights for forms training? I got a weighted vest and I can tell you, it pushes a form to the next level with cardio! I use it in the bag room as well, and thats an awesome workout!

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Ha ha! Sensitivity? That's what your training partners are for :wink1:

Anyway, I don't use weights all the time. If i practice a particular form or drill 3 times, once will be with weights.

Mike

Hey now, you can be a fighter and still be sensitive! :ultracool

Thats basically how I do it as well. When I work on forms I'll do it once almost taiji slow, then once with the weights, then about half speed, then bust it out hardcore. The one using the weights I do pretty slow as well. I haven't used weights in a while though, there is just so much to train it gets hard to do everything all the time, you kind of have to rotate certain things.

7sm

 

[vincehardy3]

Thanks for the welcome. My name is Vince Hardy, I'm originally from the Philadelphia area, and I currently reside in Omaha, Nebraska. Why Nebraska? Blame it on the Air Force.

I am a practitioner of Yiliquan Kung-fu, and my instructor's name is Phillip "Pete" Starr. Think of Yiliquan as being similar to Liu He Ba Fa. Within our system we learn Shanxi Xingyiquan, Yang style tai chi, Lungshing & Changbai Bagua, and Chinese grappling/chin na. Yiliquan takes all of this and formulates it into eight unique forms that are governed by principles unique to our system of study. Of course the system is more vast than what I have written in a few sentences, but back to the discussion at hand.

Utilizing weights within a training regiment should enhance a practitioner's technique if it is done correctly. If not, hey. You know the outcome...unnecessary pain.

I will strap on some wrist/ankle weights and practice my punches at a slow speed. This will help to not only distinguish where I am utilizing unnecessary tension in the muscles, but it will also help me to use correct body alignment, centerline theory, etc. The weights will also stress the muscles to show a practitioner where they need to relax, and how to breath through the technique. You will notice that when the muscles are tensed the breathing pattern can become more shallow. But, with practice a practitioner can eliminate that fault by learning how to drop the breath to the dan tien, and relax. This will also strenghten the muscles in the shoulders, lats, and abdomen areas. The same thing can be accomplished with kicks. After the kick is fully extended (front kick, side kick, etc.) hold the position for 30 seconds. You'll be able to practice proper body alignment as well as strenghten certain muscle groups.


Just another viewpoint. Have a good one.


Vince

 

[Guro Harold]

Those CMA iron rings are cool as well and more traditional.

 

[Trent]

I love heavy weighted vests and iron rings. Try holding the iron rings in your fingers, ala tiger claw, while going through your forms for protracted periods. Good forearm and finger muscle development if practiced extensively, and not enough weight to damage you during the quicker paced movements.

 

[grappling_mandala]

I don't see where weight training while practicing forms or freeforming would be bad. There are lots of different directions to work, your just putting a weight on the end of a flexible tool like your arm, you will make it stronger and more responsive in all directions. Just work ALL directions not just punching straight, etc.

Heavy Medicine ball is excellent, work your hooks and uppercuts and whole body connection to these short hooking punches. Also sets you up for swimming/pummeling for getting overhooks or underhooks inside of grappling range. Sets you up to effectively use your elbows also.

Any tool that adds weight, resistance, or amplification inside a range of motion is of interest to a kungfu practitioner.

My .03 cents.

Dave

 

[grappling_mandala]

Muscular power is an important part of all CMA's, even Tai Chi Chuan. No muscle=weakness and prone to injury.
No amount of internal training can make up for a lack of external developement, it's all a balance...One is not nearly as good as both together. I do suggest however, that if a person chooses to use weights durng forms practice, that they move slowly. Joint injuries are much more likely when one moves quickly with weights, also use lighter weights to prevent injury from the finer movments found withing CMA forms. Weights in hand while doing forms is not the same game as the gross motor skills needed for weight training in a gym. They should be for martial-functional strength rather than large biceps.

Mike

Yeah but there is a difference in whether you are using long chain muscle groups or short chain muscle groups. Look up myofascial connective tissue/ bio tensegrity or movement trains for western medical research that will connect the dots on what the 'internal' training actually addresses. Whole body mechanics. A multiplication of force based on the natural ratios present in the architecture / design of the human biomechanical form. Whole body mechanics amplify energy like a whip does to produce a crack. A whip doesn't start off at the speed of sound, but it gets there somehow...

my .03c

Dave

 

[Silo-Fu Kung-Fu]

never use ankle or wrist weights.
Because they are strapped on the extra weight is transfered to the joints (elbows & Knees) these joints like any other are not designed to take that kind of extra stress.

Instead I use Iron rings which because there not strapped on are free to move (slide) up and down the arm the added weight is great for strength training while doing your forms because your working the mussles in the various hand positions and movments specifically, therefor giving a great over all workout for the uper body.

as for a weight vest the Body can take that kind of extra weight, and like the iron rings a weight vest strenghthens the whole body from stances all the way up as well as allowing you to work on balance.

My weight vest at this time is not one of the commercialy available ones due to cost. I went out and bought an old "vietnam type issue" flack jacket, there cheeper and if you can do your forms at regular speed with it on then you can move up to a weight vest.