Is weight training a must?

[7starmantis]

I hear differing arguments to this all the time. There are those that say you must train with weights to be an effective MAist and those who say training with weights will hinder your MA abilities.

What are your thoughts about weight training? Do you need to train with weights to be effecient? Can you be just as strong and effecient using no weights but working body weight? Does training with weights hinder your ability to execute your MA techniques?

Thoughts?

7sm

 

[loki09789]

If by weights you mean steel plates or cable machines, well they are not essential but some form of controlled resistance/progressive load exercise increases joint stability, power generation and endurance.

Resistance training should be fitting with the goals of the artist. If your fighting style calls for dynamic motion, agility and endurance then the body builder program will not help very much.

The best stuff for general fitness/agility/athletics is what has become known as 'functional training' or exercises that develop structural strength/agility/endurace/power within athletic general motions (lifting, thrusting, twisting....) that can translate to technical or specificity training like medicine ball exercises (and I believe that Chinese arts, Tai Chi is what I know of, uses ball shaped weight for training as well), traditional core exercises of squats, pull ups, dead lifts, snatch/cleans... and some other funky and challenging exercises that are a hell of change from what most people are use to.

I recommend you check out Renegadetraining.com or Trainlikeapro.com sites for the archives which explain how wieght training fits into the overall package of performance/athletic improvement.

 

[TigerWoman]

Weight training helped me with upper body strength. (Total Gym) I felt big increases in being able to break. Its all about training smarter. Sure I could have done tons of pushups but it helped isolate and train other muscles I couldn't do with pushups. But I do know that strength building will shorten muscle fiber too and flexibility suffers then. So I didn't do any "weight" strength training for legs. Taekwondo-I need my flexibility.

 

[Ceicei]

I hear differing arguments to this all the time. There are those that say you must train with weights to be an effective MAist and those who say training with weights will hinder your MA abilities.

What are your thoughts about weight training? Do you need to train with weights to be effecient? Can you be just as strong and effecient using no weights but working body weight? Does training with weights hinder your ability to execute your MA techniques?

Thoughts?

7sm

When I returned back to kenpo, I went a year without weight training and the second year with cardio and weight training. I do one day of cardio and the next day of weight training (total of 3 days of each per week). There is a big difference in my overall physical strength and stamina this year compared with the previous year. I feel the weight training has actually helped me with my martial arts and I am able to perform better and don't get as tired.

- Ceicei

 

[Storm]

When I returned back to kenpo, I went a year without weight training and the second year with cardio and weight training.
- Ceicei

Hi hope you dont mind a new person joinging this discussion. When I joined Karate I was an pretty unfit. I got involved in doing alot of weights which helped strengh etc but it does hinder your flexability and it does also tighten you up so you are not as fast. I now do what Ceicei does and a combo of weights (light more reps)and a day of straight cardio. It has helped me alot in the strength department which I needed as I normally sit around 58-60kgs so need all the help I can get.

 

[bluenosekenpo]

As a lifelong believer in weight training allow me to step up to my soapbox...ahemm...I believe everyone! can benefit from weight training. period. full stop. It doesn't have to be full blown olympic free weight,testosterone pumping, steroid abusing weight training, but rather a routine tailored to your needs and goals. Anything that is going to exercise and strengthen muscles,ligaments and tendons has got to be a good thing. Coupled to and aerobic workout and that spells a happy healthy body to me.

Weight training specific to martial arts. I have gone through various stages of weight training all of which eventually failed(got bored,hurt,lacked a concrete goal other than getting bigger) until I tailored my training to the MA's.

Most of my weight training techniques are basically martial arts techs with weights,pulleys and resistance. For example:

Escrimadors, want forearms that will take a dog brother power shot and dish out a strike that would bring tears to eric knauss' eyes? Using very light weights,(i use 3 lb dumbells) make a vertical fist with the dumbell. Go through the various drills and stikes while(select your speed) rapidly rotating both wrists. i have had very big guys look at it and laugh until they try it then they usually cry uncle after 30 seconds or so!

Kenpoists, want to blast through a lapel grab?(lone kimono,lever,kimono grab,etc.),go through your technique while utilizing cable weights. The power you will generate is awsome.

As for speed, I don't believe speed is hampered at all(i'd say i'm faster now), and with an increase in POWER! you will find that your MA will improve accordingly. IMHO, amen. The soapbox is now vacant. :asian:

 

[Tony]

Well I work out with weights and I'm not particularly big at 5'7" about 150 pounds. But I am very flexible and like to think I can kick and punch fast and hard. Last night my instructor was saying that its much better for you legs to do stance work then squats as its a lot harder. Because you have to hold the posture for long periods of time where as with weights you are constantly moving. Larger stronger people lack speed but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of their punches.
I think weight training can help conditioning especially with forearms making your body firmer to be able to withstand pain!

 

[MJS]

I hear differing arguments to this all the time. There are those that say you must train with weights to be an effective MAist and those who say training with weights will hinder your MA abilities.

What are your thoughts about weight training?

I weight train and IMO its a big help. It all depends on what you want out of it. Do you want to bulk up or just tone?? People always say that if you're HUGE it'll slow you down. Now, look at someone in the UFC, such as Shamrock. Both Ken and Frank are big but that does not slow them down. Now take someone you see in Flex magazine....yeah, I'd say that they'd be slow.

Do you need to train with weights to be effecient? Can you be just as strong and effecient using no weights but working body weight?

You can do body weight exercises and get results. Matt Furey has a book out about that. The gym offers you more options as to what you can do to work different body parts, but IMO, you only need a few to get good results.

Does training with weights hinder your ability to execute your MA techniques?

See above.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

Well I work out with weights and I'm not particularly big at 5'7" about 150 pounds. But I am very flexible and like to think I can kick and punch fast and hard. Last night my instructor was saying that its much better for you legs to do stance work then squats as its a lot harder. Because you have to hold the posture for long periods of time where as with weights you are constantly moving. Larger stronger people lack speed but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of their punches.
I think weight training can help conditioning especially with forearms making your body firmer to be able to withstand pain![/QUOTE]

The problem with Isometric exercise (static stance holding would fit this) is that it really only develops strenth in a very narrow range of motion, usually at/near the apex of a power arc - where you will be topping out on force anyway. Modifying deep stance work from static (isometric) to Tai Chi style slow movement (even adding some weights like a medicine ball, dumb bells or a straight bar) while maintaining good deep form stances would be more beneficial to power and strength. I think combining isometric (holding the bottom or top of a push up, partner resistence exercises against kicks or punches) with the dynamic (see above) is a good combination that builds strength within 'specificity' or the exact motion you need to apply that power to as well as being economical and building trust because of some of the partner work involved. Isometric/static stance work is a GREAT way of increasing your pain threshold, concentration, determination..... without taking up a lot of space.

 

[7starmantis]

Hi hope you dont mind a new person joinging this discussion.

Not at all, welcome to the boards!!

There are very good points here, I think weight training must include allot of cardio for the martial artist. My only concern is that alot of people who weight train heavily begin to rely on their muscle for generating power, or breaking a hold, or resisting a lock. That's ok with a novice, but someone with much greater skill, or even much more strength your muscle will not work, you must use proper technique. It just seems that many who heavily train with weights begin to ignore proper technique for the quick solution of out muscling their opponent.

To be honest, I use very little weights in my training. I do ALOT of bodyweight training though. My weight training is basically very light weight, very light, with high reps. Allot of isometric in my training as well. But then I'm 6' 2" at 205 and I don't necessarily want to get alot bigger.


7sm

 

[MJS]

Not at all, welcome to the boards!!

There are very good points here, I think weight training must include allot of cardio for the martial artist. My only concern is that alot of people who weight train heavily begin to rely on their muscle for generating power, or breaking a hold, or resisting a lock. That's ok with a novice, but someone with much greater skill, or even much more strength your muscle will not work, you must use proper technique. It just seems that many who heavily train with weights begin to ignore proper technique for the quick solution of out muscling their opponent.

You're right about the cardio. Its very important. Good points with the tech. vs strength too. That is very key, especially when it comes to applying techs. I've seen people always try to muscle their way through something, but IMO, you get much better results with proper tech.!!!!

To be honest, I use very little weights in my training. I do ALOT of bodyweight training though. My weight training is basically very light weight, very light, with high reps. Allot of isometric in my training as well. But then I'm 6' 2" at 205 and I don't necessarily want to get alot bigger.

Sounds like you got a good program.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

What exactly are you referring to when you say cardio though?

Since most street altercations statistically last about as long as a hockey shift or a football play, and requires quick changes in intensity I usually try to include interval work into my conditioning exercises (skip rope, sprints on the bike or running mixed in, circuit training routines....). General health definitely requires cardio (sustained durations of maintained target heart rates) and it should be a part of the martial artist program. But, to prepare my body cardiovascularly as well as neurologically to switch in and out of various levels of intensity efficiently, intervals are important as part of the cardio and strength work out.

 

[OC Kid]

I hear differing arguments to this all the time. There are those that say you must train with weights to be an effective MAist and those who say training with weights will hinder your MA abilities.

What are your thoughts about weight training? Do you need to train with weights to be effecient? Can you be just as strong and effecient using no weights but working body weight? Does training with weights hinder your ability to execute your MA techniques?

Thoughts?

7sm

Well I am new here but Ive been around the MA for a little while. When I was competeing in the 80's and 90's i used to do both cardio and weight training. But it was the type of cardio and the way I lifted that made a difference. I used to ride a life cycle for approximately 30 min to a hou (that was my warm up) I wouldnt push the resistance of the bike but just enough to warm the muscles.Then I would lift. I did only major muscle groups and my routine wasnt based on the amount of weight I lifted but the time it took to complete a certain amount of reps per a set in say 15 - 20 seconds. Say with legs I would have just enough weight to work me. I would lift 110 lbs and then see how many toimes I could lift it under control not jerking for 15 seconds. So say I lifted 10-12 reps as a bench mark. Then once I can lift more consistently increase it anther 5 to 10 pounds. i tried to simulate the quickness required in the martial arts. I would also do step areobics 2-3 days a week. This would help with mmy flexability , strength and endurance as the moves were very simular to martial art moves. After both work outs I would do some light stretching for my cool down period.
Well thats what i did anyway. Now im a geezer just teaching some kids

 

[MJS]

What exactly are you referring to when you say cardio though?

Since most street altercations statistically last about as long as a hockey shift or a football play, and requires quick changes in intensity I usually try to include interval work into my conditioning exercises (skip rope, sprints on the bike or running mixed in, circuit training routines....). General health definitely requires cardio (sustained durations of maintained target heart rates) and it should be a part of the martial artist program. But, to prepare my body cardiovascularly as well as neurologically to switch in and out of various levels of intensity efficiently, intervals are important as part of the cardio and strength work out.

Are you asking me?? If so, here is my answer. Anything that is going to elevate your heart rate. It sounds like you already have a good thing going as well. That is what I'm talking about also.....jogging, though it can be rough on the knees...jumping rope, biking, etc. All very good ways to improve on cardio.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

Are you asking me??
Mike

It was a plural "you" for all mentioning cardio training.

 

[MJS]

It was a plural "you" for all mentioning cardio training.

Didnt you and I have this misunderstanding before???

One of these days I'll get it!!

Mike

 

[Storm]

My only concern is that alot of people who weight train heavily begin to rely on their muscle for generating power, or breaking a hold, or resisting a lock.
But then I'm 6' 2" at 205 and I don't necessarily want to get alot bigger.

7sm

Trust me, at 5'1" Im not relying on muscle mass for generating power. You made me convert my kgs into pounds, Im wondering if I should be on a diet rather than the weights!!

Weight training does help in the area of giving you the knowledge of where your source of power comes from so in conjunction with using the technique in the correct way it does help. I just usually concentrate on upper body, alot of abs, press ups, squats and running.

 

[RCastillo]

You better believe it, especially when you get older! :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

What exactly are you referring to when you say cardio though?

Since most street altercations statistically last about as long as a hockey shift or a football play, and requires quick changes in intensity I usually try to include interval work into my conditioning exercises (skip rope, sprints on the bike or running mixed in, circuit training routines....).

By cardio I'm talking about training which elevates the heart rate and keeps it elevated for an extended or at least specific time period. I think the fact that "most" street fights end rather quickly isn't neccessarily a reason to not place importance in cardio training. Aside from being healthy and having a functioning heart, cardio is what allows you to have the advantage in a fight with someone who has your level of skill or even better. In my opinion, cardio is one of the most important parts of MA training. Not everyone agrees with me on this, but to me, moving in and out of varying degrees of intensity like you mentioned is going to require a high level of cardio fitness.

7sm

 

[Kenpo Mama]

For cardio - i train a combination of cardio kickboxing with and without a bag and the elliptical. For weight training i use body weight push-ups, abs, squats, lunges, and astanga (power yoga). Power yoga is an incredible workout that tones the muscles, builds strength and stamina and increases flexibility and balance. It really helps to build the core so essential to the practice of martial arts.

Donna