Weapons in Karate???

[Jimi]

That is true the sai by my understanding was devoloped outside of Okinawa as a weapon and it was never used as a farming implament.

Would you agree that the Sai is a classic counter Katana weapon as used in the Okinawan Systems?

 

[Brandon Fisher]

As far as my research has shown that is the case. So yes I would agree with that. But the sai is also quite effectice against a bo among other weapons also. But the Sai has always seemed to be a status symbol.

 

[Jimi]

As far as my research has shown that is the case. So yes I would agree with that. But the sai is also quite effectice against a bo among other weapons also. But the Sai has always seemed to be a status symbol.

Thanks, I feel better knowing that at least that understanding of the Sai is on the mark. BTW, What is your source for research in the Okinawan Arts such as Kobudo, mine is simply that I trained with men from the old east coast martial arts demo team. People like Sensei Randy Wozin (deceased) Sensei Clarence Murray, Jimmy Yee, Sensei Jesse Stelle amoung others. Matbe I can understand more of my misinformation. PEACE

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Jimi,
I have used a lot of resources over the years. Your information that the sai was a farm implement is the most common story of the history. It very well may be true but the thing that got me was this website: www.ryukyu-kobudo.com and via George Alexander saying on his sai jutsu dvd (www.yamazato-videos.com) that it was not a farm implement. However I just reread the ryukyu kobudo description and it looks like it was used as defense of king and queens

The Sai (Steel Truncheon) 釵 passed through India and China to enter the Ryukyu where it was further developed. During the Ryukyu Kingdom Era, it was originally devised as a policing tool for the protection of the King and high ministers. Used in combat situations and in the arresting of ruffians, criminals. The Busa (martial artists) formulated Kata so people could train by themselves in offensive and defensive techniques. The primary emphasis being self-defence and policing. Also called Jutte or Nunte

 

[Andrew Green]

It's also not unique as a weapon to Okinawa, but the farming tool story I believe is.

Other countries have had sai, under different names, as a weapon.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I need to research this throughly if I can just find the time I am really intiqued now that I looked at Fumio Demura's book on Sai. The history states in that book that the sai was used as a farming implemnt by dragging it through the field while another farmer followed planting the seeds.

 

[Andrew Green]

try looking for something called a "tjabang"

 

[Brandon Fisher]

So far I have only been able to confirm both sides of the story. It looks as though it depends on who you talk to and lineage of the instructor.

 

[Jimi]

try looking for something called a "tjabang"

That's the Silat practitioners term for the same weapon I believe, I was told by an Instructor/Friend that in Indonesia this was also used a stake down the leash of a farm animal. I just thought , if a little Indonesian man can uproot this stake, so could an animal. But the fact that a Sai, Jabang or what ever name you call it, is a great blade trapping weapon. Bukti Negara has 2 of these weapons displayed in their logo, a bird of prey is holding one in each talon, and the birds breast seems to have a tiger (feline) head. This weapon has been around. Not exclusive to Okinawa, but most in the states reconize it from the Okinawan systems, children yell Raphiel Ninja Turtles Go!

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have a email into Patrick McCarthy to see if he can had something to this from his research. I will update this thread if I hear back.

 

[Explorer]

Saiko-Shihan Mikio Nishiuchi has a wonderful series of DVDs that I use as a reference tool. He trained in Okinawa and, later, founded the International Okinawa Kobudo Association.

I've spoken with him on the phone, he is very kind and helpful. I recommend his DVDs highly.

 

[monkey]

There were many wepons in Okinawa as there were give 12 chinese monks as a gift.Those had to change as McCarther signed the scatt law in ww1 & prohibited martial arts.The wepons became farm tool ect.Great people came from that Oyata-Hohan Soken- to name a few.I know George Allexander has a great history of Okinawa showing rits & rare photos & video clips of rare masters.The fuuny thing about the scatt law was the Airforce & some females like Trumans wife & others did judo at that time.How odd occidentals can but yet the source or founders cant.

 

[TimoS]

There were many wepons in Okinawa as there were give 12 chinese monks as a gift.

Eh? Sorry, but doesn't quite make sense. What was given as a gift? The weapons or the monks?

Those had to change as McCarther signed the scatt law in ww1 & prohibited martial arts.

That would be WW2, not 1

The fuuny thing about the scatt law was the Airforce & some females like Trumans wife & others did judo at that time.How odd occidentals can but yet the source or founders cant.

Because judo was "sold" as a sport, the ban was lifted, apparently in 1947, so nothing unusual about that

 

[chinto]

Hello.
Is it weapons in Karate???

meany of the Okinawan styles of Karate teach weapons as part of the curiculum. the weapons art is called Kobujitsu or kobudo. and they have traditionaly been tought together. after all if you got a weapon handy you would use it in a life and death fight. the man who studied Karate on Okinawa in say 1700 or 1910 either way was looking at training to survive any altercation that was quite reasonably considerd to be a life and death thing if it happend. Personaly I would say that today on the street it would be prudent to assume that any altercation has at the minumum a posiblility of being a life and death altercation.

 

[chinto]

Would you agree that the Sai is a classic counter Katana weapon as used in the Okinawan Systems?

I would submit that the sai is more a weapon optimized to deal with a bo or perhaps a yari then a katana. The Japanese Jute is the weapon that is similar to a sai that is optimized to deal with a katana. The “quillian” is much closer to the shaft of the weapon to allow it to trap and hold a sword blade that is not nearly as thick as say a bo shaft. That is not to say that a sai is not effective agenst a sword in the hands of a skilled man, just that it is not optimized for it.

I also read one source that said that the sai was almost the same as a police officers badge at some points in time on Okinawa. I have no way to confirm of deny this though. So can not say if it is true. There are theories that the sai was derived from a fish gaff, and that could easily fit the ninti sai, but again I have no definitive information on that.

 

[Victor Smith]

The systesm of kobudo study from Okinawa utilize weapons that can be found in many other SE Asian cultures. The Chinese crutch is similar to the Tonfa. The Sai are found in other cultures. The Kama is a unversal gardening tool, the same with the Bo, found everywhere in the world.

Kobudo seems to have developed mostly in family or town systems of study. By the 1920's it was on its way of the big decline but individuals like Moden Yabiku, Mabuni Kenwa and Taira Shinken began working to save those traditions. As time passed others such as the Yammani ryu, Matayoshi's Kobudo, and other more rare systems began to be shared pubically.

Things always changed. Today some Yammani practitioners have added Sai, where Yammani originally was just a bo system of study.

In the past 50 or so years some of the Karate systems began to add kobudo more significantly.

Kyan Chotoku only incorporated one bo kata (Tokomeni No Kon) but in time some of his students also trained with Taira Shinken and various other kobudo studies were added.

When karate transferred to Japan, Funakoshi Ginchin did demonstrate sai and bo (his father was a bo expert) but those arts didn't fit the needs of the University students he was developing, nor did karate grappling studies. Japan had its own old weapons traditions, and developed judo from jujutsu, so why add what the Japanese weren't looking for in any case.

Functionaity can always be discussed, but in recent history the use of kobudo for significent self defense is non-existent.

The most obvious value to long term (20+ year) kobudo study is the secondary value it imparts for strength, grip and etc.

 

[chinto]

I need to research this throughly if I can just find the time I am really intiqued now that I looked at Fumio Demura's book on Sai. The history states in that book that the sai was used as a farming implemnt by dragging it through the field while another farmer followed planting the seeds.

dont know about that, but I had a lot of fun at class recently throwing them. the sai is of course thown in the kata at times and often were carried not in pairs but in sets of 3 so you could throw one. ( it is a lot of fun to do, and not a bad idea to find out how well they work for you at diferent distances.)

 

[Jin Gang]

It's true. Sai are a Chinese weapon, or at least used in some Chinese martial arts. It's not a really common weapon, but it's there. It was definately never a farming tool. This is a myth perpetuated by folks who just didn't know. Same with the tuifa aka crutch. The Okinawan version is shorter. It could have been made from a mill handle, I suppose, but I don't think it is a coincidence that a form of the weapon also exists in China.

 

[TimoS]

Same with the tuifa aka crutch. The Okinawan version is shorter. It could have been made from a mill handle, I suppose, but I don't think it is a coincidence that a form of the weapon also exists in China.

I was under the impression that it wasn't a very common weapon in chinese martial arts? At least some of my friends who are practising kung-fu here in Finland are saying that only some styles use it (granted, we don't have too many real kung-fu schools here)

 

[Brandon Fisher]

dont know about that, but I had a lot of fun at class recently throwing them. the sai is of course thown in the kata at times and often were carried not in pairs but in sets of 3 so you could throw one. ( it is a lot of fun to do, and not a bad idea to find out how well they work for you at diferent distances.)

True at times they were thrown and carried in sets of 3. Since I posted that over a year ago I have spoken with other kobudo sensei and have confirmed that the sai was always a weapon and never used as a farming implement. Why Demura Sensei put that in his book I don't know. But Nakamoto Kiichi among others told me about it not being used as a farming implement.