Weapons anyone?

[chufeng]

Why yes and why no?

YiLiQuan uses many of the principles of T'aiJiQuan but combines them with principles/strategies from BaGua and XingYi...

We include in out training Yang's short form and a form derived from the Combined (five families) TaiJi set...

We do not modify the Yang set...but the combined set includes some of the strategic stepping actions of YiLi...so many of the angles are different...

That's how yes and how no...similar, but different.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[theneuhauser]

blue belt chufeng !

training soft styles is the next best thing to learning physics!
y'all agree?

 

[Taiji fan]

I can see some points where we differ in our techniques and training, so it is interesting to talk to someone who has come from a differnt style.

The point of the sword is the business end for the majority of the techniques.

I guess this is a main difference in Yang Shi we use the entire sword in fact there are only a small number of moves using the tip of the sword.

having a strong grip on the blade allows you to control it through the target...but again, the blade does the work...the blade amplifies the initial force.

we do not work with a fixed grip we have a variety of grip changes for different movemnts for example in a thrust the guard is controlled by the thumb and forefinger on the wings of the guard.....slicing horizonatally from right to left the fingers are open with the thumb and the forefinger 'around' the guard.

power is developed in a strong action in the wrist

interesting.....we are trained in power is developed from rotations in the body, primarily noticeable in the waist and forearms. In taijiquan the wrist does not work independently. The power in the rotation of teh forearm comes from maintaining the alignment through the wrist and sinking elbows and shoulders, this creates the spiraling energy that will cause the energy to move along the blade.

Can you hold a blade still and cut with the action of the waist? Yes, but it is certainly a more difficult cut to master.

thid is the entire basis for our art, no waist no taijiquan.

When defending against an incoming attack, force is not met with force...it is redirected...(easy enough to imagine but even easier if I were to show you what I mean)...

again a fundamental part of taijiquan,

Can you see how any of this might apply to empty hands? Certainly it is easy to see that a punch would be ineffective if the person executing the technique allowed his wrist and elbow to buckle on impact...now, I am not suggesting that your punch be rigid, per se, but rather that it is properly alligned so that the integrity of the technique remains unbroken from the heel through the target...

mmnn I find this rather strange, in barehand we are already working this way before picking up a sword, the sword doesn't teach us how to enhance our barehand, we learn the boimechanics of technique teh exe cutino of technique, the body requirments/ essences, before picking up sword. To be honest I think we are both talking about the same thing but from a slightly different perspective.

We include in out training Yang's short form

Yangs short form? There is no Yang short form...are you talking about 37 step, 24 step or what ?
Yang taijiquan is not a strictly linear style it has movements to all angles.

respectfully

 

[chufeng]

Yang's 24 step form (the shortest set, hence my term Yang's Short Form)...

TaiJiFan, have you ever actually sparred with your straight sword?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[East Winds]

Originally posted by chufeng

[We include in out training Yang's short form and a form derived from the Combined (five families) TaiJi set...

We do not modify the Yang set...but the combined set includes some of the strategic stepping actions of YiLi...so many of the angles are different...


:asian:
chufeng [/B]

Chufeng,

The 24 step simplified form is not Yang style Taiji. It is what it says it is "Simplified" taiji based on Yang style. Formulated by a committee after the cultural revolution, it contains none of the complexities of Tradional Yang Family Tajiquan. Also, by the "combined" set, do you mean the 48 posture competition form? Would I be correct in assuming on that basis that Yiliquan is a modern hybrid system?

So which sword form to you follow. Is this also a hybrid form? I'm not knocking Yiliquan, I just don't know enough about it to do that., but I need to know where you are coming from. Quite simply our sword forms appear to have little in common. We use all parts of the swrod and our grip is always relaxed in order to adjust swiftly according to the technique being employed. Sword form is a matter of skill,precision and speed. The attack is always angular, never going in a straight line. The blade is doing all the work, but the ENTIRE BODY is used to create the energy. These are only a few of the very basic principles in Yang sword. We would not let anyone near weapons until they had a very sound grounding in barehand form. Weapons are an extension of barehand, not the other way about!

Can you recommend a website so that I may learn more about Yiliquan?

Yiliquan sounds interesting, can you give a brief resume of its lineage?

Very best wishes

 

[Taiji fan]

East Winds....looks like we are working on the same principles. I have spent some time studying simplified 24 step and I started off with Cheng Man Chings 37 step (although it was taught in the manner of yang style rather than the manner of Cheng Man Ching). I could not believe how little the 24 step resembled the tradtional form and assumed I had just been badly taught in the first place. Much of the major body requirments are missing in simplified....

TaiJiFan, have you ever actually sparred with your straight sword?

Chufeng....I have played with the applications and sword exercises, both individually and in partner exercise.......do I spar as in free style? No, I am still developing the basic principles of understanding the complexities of sword and making sure that my body requirements are correct.

 

[chufeng]

East Wind,

If you go the "Schools" forum, we have a link to our webBoard and to an article on YiLiQuan...and yes, it is a hybrid system.

Interesting point about the 'simplified" version...I didn't know that the principles were different in the 24 step form and Yang's other forms...Why would someone pass on something "wrong?"
Or is it just not as in depth?

At any rate, we use it for beginners to TaiJiQuan, the combined set is taught at a more advanced level in our system...

Our sword sets are derived from BaiXingQuan, an old Shaolin based system. We use the entire blade (and blade guard and pommel), but focus on the tip for cutting.

This is an interesting exchange, Thanks.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[East Winds]

Originally posted by chufeng

Interesting point about the 'simplified" version...I didn't know that the principles were different in the 24 step form and Yang's other forms...Why would someone pass on something "wrong?"
Or is it just not as in depth?

chufeng [/B]

Chufeng,

Thanks for the information. I found your website very interesting.

The 24 step form is not "wrong". It was developed by the Chinese Government after the cultural revolution as a way of providing a Taiji form which would keep the population fit and healthy and which could be learned quickly and performed in a short time and in a small space. (Master Li De Yin was one of the committee who formulated this form). Most of the forms up till that time had been Family long forms. (some of which had gone underground during Mao's reign) You are correct in assuming it does not have the depth of the traditional Yang form. That said, it is a very useful introduction to Taiji and I teach it myself particularly to older people who do not wish to learn either the long form or the martial aspects of taiji. Although that is not to say that 24 step could not be used for martial purposes and as an aid to explaining the correct postures, I usually demonstrate some of the applications.

I think we are saying basically the same thing about sword, but in our own special way!

I have enjoyed this exchange and it is always enlightening to find out about another new (at least to me) system.

Very best wishes

 

[Taiji fan]

theneuhauser said

training soft styles is the next best thing to learning physics!

:erg: mind boggling!! I prefere biology myself!!!:boing1:

Interesting point about the 'simplified" version...I didn't know that the principles were different in the 24 step form and Yang's other forms...Why would someone pass on something "wrong?"

I would have to say that some of the moves (compared to trad. Yang) are blatently wrong, but perhaps also due to the way I was taught. But that does not mean that you cannot practise simplified form in the maner of Traditional Yang.......it takes critical analysis of the mechanics of the application to see where the main embellishments are......the roll back on the grasp sparrows tail section is a big one

 

[East Winds]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
But that does not mean that you cannot practise simplified form in the maner of Traditional Yang.......it takes critical analysis of the mechanics of the application to see where the main embellishments are......the roll back on the grasp sparrows tail section is a big one [/B]

Taiji Fan

You are absolutely correct. Master Christopher Pei (a 5th generation Yang lineage holder) of the US Wushu Academy performs 24 step in the way of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan on his video "A Piece of Cake". If you have the chance to see this, it is superb!

Regards

 

[CraneSpreadWings]

the barehand style i play is the Chen Pan Ling form. In my school we also practice a shaolin staff...I like this because it builds strength, structural integrity, spacial awareness (growing the nervous system), and an understandng maybe of how circles work...I have been studying with my Sifu for almost 2.5 years and we are going to start studying the Yang style Broadsword form this winter...the 'Higher Philosophies' as Sifu calls it... As I understand it, traditionally in the Yang Shr, the Jian was not taught until around ten years of barehand experience and possibly a fan form or spear...I feel okay studying the broadsword(100 day sword), but I plan to wait a pretty long while before starting the Jian...they sure are beautiful swords if you got an authentic old one in your hands though

 

[Taiji fan]

In my school we also practice a shaolin staff...I like this because it builds strength, structural integrity, spacial awareness (growing the nervous system), and an understandng maybe of how circles work.

tell me more about your staff form....what kind of staff is it a long one or a short (ish one) etc. I learned a little monkey staff and it was pretty good fun. Staff doesn't really suit me though......I prefer a sword!!

we are going to start studying the Yang style Broadsword form this winter

mmnnn interesting Yang Shi doesn't have a broad sword form.....there is a sabre form but the sabre is quite a different weapon to the broadsword.

I plan to wait a pretty long while before starting the Jian...they sure are beautiful swords if you got an authentic old one in your hands though

finding a good sword is not easy though, I am still looking for the one that really suits me.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Chinese broadsword = da dao

Chinese saber/sabre = da dao

Same weapon, different terms. Like calling a staff a cudgel.

Gambarimasu.

 

[East Winds]

Yiliquan1,

Not quite. The Yang Family use the Southern Broadsword which is based on the typical army type sabre. This has a long thin blade which has no broadening at the tip so common in what we think of as the broadsword. It also has a large 1.5" ring at the end of the pommel. (Used in some of the applications). It is the same breadth all along its length but with a slight turn up at the tip. There is no requirement to have it broader at the tip as the requirements of use are different. There is no need to have a bone breaking ability as with the typical broadsword. (Hence the broadening at the tip to provide strength to the blade). The Yang Sabre form has only 13 postures (Yang Shi Taji Dao Shi San Shi) and is not the hack and slash that we can see in so many other sabre/broadsword forms.

Very best wishes

 

[Matt Stone]

Wow.

Thanks. Wasn't aware of a specific difference. I have seen the "souther broadsword" offered for sale on different websites, as well as a "tai chi broadsword" with the thin blade you are describing, but thought they were just rarities...

Ya learn somethin' new every day, huh?

Gambarimasu.

 

[Taiji fan]

I had also heard that the sabre was pratically unknown with Yang varitions that had come via Hong Kong and they practise a 'Yang style' broadsword form, perhaps Tung's form?

 

[East Winds]

Interesting point Taji fan. Tung Ying-chieh was a student of Yang Cheng-fu for some 20 years. He developed his own form of Taijiquan (although still based on Yang form) and Tung's sabre form is different from the Yang form taught today. For instance the postural requirements are different and there is a "stabbing stamp" that is not present in the Yang form. Interestingly, he also introduced a "fast form" of taijiquan. Not just the original form speeded up, but a short, explosive, fast form.

Anyone else practise such a fast form?

Regards

 

[arnisador]

My Tai Chi instructor, before she moved, had a fast form she taught to younger students for self-defense. She taught the simplified 24-step national form to the bulk of her students who were senior citizens there for health reasons.

 

[Taiji fan]

Was the fast form more Chen like in style?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Taiji fan

Was the fast form more Chen like in style?

I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on this. It used more higher, narrower stances, more 180 degree turns, and kept the arms closer to the body (comparatively).