taiji in self-defense?

[ggg214]

these days, i am watching "human weapon", which is a programm to introduce us different MAs in the world.
most of them are tested in a fight. some of them are used for survival,such as Krav Maga. in Krav Maga, it shows us how to defense when facing a knife killer, or in the situation of being surrounded by many persons.

there brings me a Q: how to use taiji in this situation of being attacked by a kinfe or other weapons? does anyone feel the usage of taiji in real fighting?

as i know, the popular taiji application is push-hands. although there are many competitions in push hands, we should admit that it's far from real fight.

what's your opinions? i am looking forward to your replys!

 

[pete]

a good weapon usage within push hands is to arm one participant with a knife, and the other to prevent or respond to his actions of drawing the knife. could then move on to arming both with knives...

once the knife is drawn and able to be used, distance becomes your friend so push hands format is abandoned for more of a 'sparring' type activity.

pete

 

[RealTaiji]

Soft Push Hands is not a way to gain self-defense. If it's done with proper attitude, it's a way to reduce fear reactions. But the push-the-guy-away bit is just silly; it's an expensive way to pretend self-defense.

Combat Push Hands can develop the reflexive power, a twitch if you will, that allows a body to react to violence quickly and violently. Sparring is too linear, and preventing a knife from being withdrawn is not possible on me. I can always pull it back.

We must clobber an attacker, and, realistically, risk getting cut. One cut I might survive. And an attack-first attitude might get 'em. Attack right when he draws the knife. Phoom!

Better yet, in knife country, carry a weapon. A durable hat, an umbrella, maybe a shopping cart will do.

 

[pete]

Combat Push Hands can develop the reflexive power, a twitch if you will, that allows a body to react to violence quickly and violently. Sparring is too linear, and preventing a knife from being withdrawn is not possible on me. I can always pull it back.

Only a Sith speaks in absolutes... if you think 'sparring is too linear', that tells me something of your experience, try sparring with bagua guys. If you think preventing the knife to be drawn is not possible on you, try pushing with opponents that have better sticking skills.

you may be good... hell, you may be great at what you do, but you know what they say about any given sunday...

pete.

 

[Quotheraving]

Soft Push Hands is not a way to gain self-defense. If it's done with proper attitude, it's a way to reduce fear reactions. But the push-the-guy-away bit is just silly; it's an expensive way to pretend self-defense.

Yeah Yang lu chan developed this purely to amuse himself in his spare time, it actually has no practical combat applications and was adopted by numerous other martial arts because they found it equally entertaining.

[Sarcasm mode off]


~Including Silat, a martial art which places a heavy emphasis on knife fighting techniques and is rooted in a culture where knife fights are common and hence practicality is essential.
In that art Push hands techniques are frequently adopted and adapted to develop the sticking and listening skills that are needed in real knife combat.
As seen here:

 

[Myrmidon]

Here are some kerambit techniques from Filipino Kali:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O6MchAeAkc&feature

 

[ggg214]

In that art Push hands techniques are frequently adopted and adapted to develop the sticking and listening skills that are needed in real knife combat.
As seen here:

maybe it's the way of using the taiji skill. but it seems unrealistic

 

[RealTaiji]

Yeah Yang lu chan developed this purely to amuse himself in his spare time, it actually has no practical combat applications and was adopted by numerous other martial arts because they found it equally entertaining.
[Sarcasm mode off]
~Including Silat, a martial art which places a heavy emphasis on knife fighting techniques and is rooted in a culture where knife fights are common and hence practicality is essential.
In that art Push hands techniques are frequently adopted and adapted to develop the sticking and listening skills that are needed in real knife combat.
As seen here:

Well sarcasm or not, I agree with you....

Only a Sith speaks in absolutes...

though push hands is a bit toned down from Lu chan's day. It might (maybe) have been a bit more striky instead of pushy.

Some push hands players and possibly some teaching methods mutate push hands away from sticking and listening, too; getting all caught up in pushing people (lots of that on YourTube). That's the bit I don't like very much (but I like it a little). The folks in the shows moved their feet for example: that's good.

People who get good at sticking and listening also might gain a tendency to believe that that alone makes good fighting. But we know better; we know it's a component of combat and/or a little portion of self-defense.

One can, of course, be sticky and listening while striking.

I like the clips you posted.

 

[Quotheraving]

though push hands is a bit toned down from Lu chan's day. It might (maybe) have been a bit more striky instead of pushy.

A previous teacher of mine explained this (approximately, as my memory isn't great) as follows:
"Each push can equally well be a strike and vice versa, so the elbow stroke in Da lu can also be used as an uprooting move.
What we're doing with the pushes is getting the range, root and structure, as well as storing and releasing energy correct and repeating it till it becomes instinct. Once the foundation is solid the choice of whether to strike or not is up to you... not in class though, as I don't want you injured and unable to come to practice next week... with all that lovely money."

I personally feel that fights are won by removing the opponents desire to fight rather than removing their teeth.

 

[Xue Sheng]

though push hands is a bit toned down from Lu chan's day. It might (maybe) have been a bit more striky instead of pushy.

You have obviously never done push hands with my sifu.

And if you had done push hands with my sifu you would also know that striking is not necessarily all that important.

Kick, punch, redirect, uproot, throw to ground, Qinna, to name a few, are all part of it as well as is staying incredibly relaxed while doing all this. And since he is only 1 person removed form Yang Chengfu how toned down is it really since Yang Luchan?

 

[ggg214]

A previous teacher of mine explained this (approximately, as my memory isn't great) as follows:
"Each push can equally well be a strike and vice versa, so the elbow stroke in Da lu can also be used as an uprooting move.
What we're doing with the pushes is getting the range, root and structure, as well as storing and releasing energy correct and repeating it till it becomes instinct. Once the foundation is solid the choice of whether to strike or not is up to you... not in class though, as I don't want you injured and unable to come to practice next week... with all that lovely money."

thanks for your good explanation.
i agree with you. recently i am reading a net novel about Wu Xia. in the novel, when the leading role asked each candidates for deciding which one was qualified to be his sifu, one told him that i would not teach you any skill of fighting, but i would train you every part of body, in order to build your whole body in best condition to fight.
back to this topic, taiji may lack some pounch or kicking skills, but it will build a best body structure for you, then any skills is suitable for you to fight.

 

[kwaichang]

these days, i am watching "human weapon", which is a programm to introduce us different MAs in the world.
most of them are tested in a fight.

There you go. It's TV!! Basically IMO, it's to show you what's out there. I NEVER think those fight tests are really going to show that these guys, in just a few days, beat out the champions that they face. At least their show is better than the one a few years ago with the woman.

 

[ggg214]

sure, at last they all use their familiar fighting style to defend or attack.
it's more like to test whether the style introduced in tv can fight or not.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

there brings me a Q: how to use taiji in this situation of being attacked by a kinfe or other weapons? does anyone feel the usage of taiji in real fighting?

as i know, the popular taiji application is push-hands. although there are many competitions in push hands, we should admit that it's far from real fight.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Taiji doesn't specialize in knife defenses. Usually knife arts are best for defending against knives because they take the blade seriously and know it's capabilities and weaknesses. Silat and Filipino arts are best for that although that will be hard to find where you are (China).

Push hands isn't taiji application, but taiji applications can be worked in push hands if the teacher allows that. No it's not a "fight" but then BJJ and UFC matches aren't either. They're all sport competitions and need to be viewed that way.

Push hands is used to train certain skills and if you throw everything in to mimic "fighting," especially at first, then you'll likely never get what push hands is trying to teach you.

I would take it one step at a time.

 

[Bodhisattva]

these days, i am watching "human weapon", which is a programm to introduce us different MAs in the world.
most of them are tested in a fight. some of them are used for survival,such as Krav Maga. in Krav Maga, it shows us how to defense when facing a knife killer, or in the situation of being surrounded by many persons.

there brings me a Q: how to use taiji in this situation of being attacked by a kinfe or other weapons? does anyone feel the usage of taiji in real fighting?

as i know, the popular taiji application is push-hands. although there are many competitions in push hands, we should admit that it's far from real fight.

what's your opinions? i am looking forward to your replys!

I would not use tai chi for self defense, personally speaking. Just my opinion, however.

 

[pete]

I would not use tai chi for self defense, personally speaking. Just my opinion, however.

you are likely correct. one does not magically rise to the occasion, rather one sinks to the level of their training.

if you have not trained to use tai chi for self defense, you will not have confidence that it will save your ***, and under duress you will choose to do something else. probably something that you have trained at a higher level and have more confidence in it doing the job.

using that logic, i can only agree with your opinion of what you personally would do. however, do not presume that others haven't developed their tai chi to be quite effective defending themselves. personally, i do not think i can separate my tai chi from what i would do, it's all one.

pete

 

[kwaichang]

For the few years I studied Yang Style, I was fortunate to have an instructor that, after you got the 28 forms (or so) down into the flowing movement everyone is familiar with, showed how each part could be used in self defense. He also explained that as your body and nerves are familiar with those moves they'd come more naturally in an attack situation.

 

[Xue Sheng]

From Wu Zhiqing a student of Yang Chengfu

Taijiquan is not a mysterious and bizarre magical art; neither is it the shallow skill of the body guards and street performers. Rather, it is a natural self-defense, exercise, and health system that arises from the natural world - Wu Zhiqing

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I would not use tai chi for self defense, personally speaking. Just my opinion, however.

Simple one word question:

Why?

 

[Laoshi77]

I would not use tai chi for self defense, personally speaking. Just my opinion, however.

I have used Taijiquan when I needed to protect myself, it is what comes natural to me and is not forced therefore making movement and technique effortless.
'Bodhisattva', I understand where you are coming from but can only presume you have never learned real Taijiquan with a good teacher; self defense is a fundamental aspect of learning this martial art.

From my experience of many different arts Taijiquan skill is more powerful than anything I've ever seen!