Taiji weapons, huh Good God, y'all What are they good for..

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah I know you extend your energy to the tip, and it helps with internal development and you learn to extend your qi…yadda yadda yadda, yakkity smackity who cares.

Now this is nothing earth shattering and nothing that has not been said about just about every MA weapon out there, and I have been called and at one time referred to myself as a traditionalist… but….

I like the dao forms I train, not a big fan of the jian, but I train it and I do like watching it done well. I learned some of the long pole…and I actually see a function for that, but not SD really. Love a good Guandao form and I can see a use for that as well, but again not really SD… in reality none of these are worth much for SD all by themselves in the 21st century in most parts of the planet.

I guess it all comes down to what you are looking for from a Taiji weapons form. I have had a lot of time to think about forms and training over the last 5 years and, after a few false starts, I am returning to training with my Taiji shifu again, and I am going to get my forms, both empty and weapons back to where they were before all this stuff happened, but after that I doubt I will do a dao or jain form ever again as I was taught, I can see them being modified for use with a short staff or a cane and then I feel they become useful in the 21st century, at least in my part of the world, but the actual weapons, as cool as the look, for me to continue training them, is pointless. As for the long pole; it is a great way to train body unity and it will work just about every muscle you have and give yo a bit of cardio as well. But the likelihood of me walking down the street carrying a 9 foot long pole or a spear for that matter is not all that great. Same goes for the Guandao, although I have never officially been taught the guan (it is not part of Yang style, it is part of Chen style) I have played with it and it too will give you a great workout. But then it is even kind of hard to find a place to train with a guandao, can’t carry it into a gym, can’t train it in my yard (although I think the reaction of my neighbors may tempt me to try :EG: )

If someone wants to train the weapons forms as they are I think it is great. It is just becoming something that is no longer for me based on usefulness as I see it.

Now after this I am actual interested in others views as to what they think about the weapons forms in Taijiquan and why, or why you do not, train them. There are no wrong answers here I am not trying to change minds, I am mostly curious

Note
Yeah I also realize I was kind of channeling Edwin Starr there in the title, sorry about that, but I just couldn’t stop myself

 

[mograph]

XS, have you found that weapons training has revealed flaws in your form that might not be seen in a barehand set?

 

[Xue Sheng]

XS, have you found that weapons training has revealed flaws in your form that might not be seen in a barehand set?

Not really, although I have heard for some that it does, and I am happy that it does for them. What has been best at showing me flaws in the empty handed form is my sifu saying, "That's wrong" ...ok more seriously, what has been the most help with that is serious, slow, and sometimes painful, introspection as to how things are going with my form as well as doing my best to adhere to the ten essentials of Yang and whatever the Chen equivalent of that is.

 

[Argus]

Does a weapon have to be practical in SD to merit training?

I find weapons training to simply be fun. I harbor an interest in HEMA / German Longsword, which I'd love to do more of when I get the chance. It's extremely unlikely that I could ever make use of that training, but what does it matter? It's fun!

As a side note, I do find that learning weapons gets you to open up your mind about empty hand as well. I'm not sure how comparable other martial arts are, but at least in the case of WC and fencing, there are too many parallels to ignore. One can enhance your understanding of the other more than you might think.

 

[zzj]

I don't really train Taijiquan for SD, I have a bit of rudimentary Judo and TKD experience that would serve better (relatively speaking) for SD. Taijiquan is more an immersion into the tradition, participating in the culture and the art, and the weapon forms are just part of it. That is my current mindset, but of course I'm hoping one day I'll be proficient in Taijiquan enough such that it becomes my way of being and SD would be a part of it then.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Does a weapon have to be practical in SD to merit training?

I find weapons training to simply be fun. I harbor an interest in HEMA / German Longsword, which I'd love to do more of when I get the chance. It's extremely unlikely that I could ever make use of that training, but what does it matter? It's fun!

As a side note, I do find that learning weapons gets you to open up your mind about empty hand as well. I'm not sure how comparable other martial arts are, but at least in the case of WC and fencing, there are too many parallels to ignore. One can enhance your understanding of the other more than you might think.

Nope, no practical SD required. If you enjoy them, train them. I used to enjoy them and I trained them a lot, it was just after years of training them and then not being able to and thinking about them, it started to seem like a waste of "my" time based on what I was after.

But to be honest I am training them again so I can better understand them since it has been a long time since I have been able to train them properly. I will admit I understand the Dao much better than the Jian as far as applications go, but there a lot of the applications are for fighting a long spear and I do not think I will come across many of those while I am out for my afternoon stroll with my Dao on my side (or back). But before I stop them or change them for a short staff or a stick I feel I should at least get back to where I was before the injuries

For me, and this is just me, I am not trying to change minds here, the only thing empty hand that training weapons has really taught me is what to do with the empty hand that is not holding a jian or dao.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't really train Taijiquan for SD, I have a bit of rudimentary Judo and TKD experience that would serve better (relatively speaking) for SD. Taijiquan is more an immersion into the tradition, participating in the culture and the art, and the weapon forms are just part of it. That is my current mindset, but of course I'm hoping one day I'll be proficient in Taijiquan enough such that it becomes my way of being and SD would be a part of it then.

A lot of people, most of my sifu's class these days, do not train Taiji for SD. I am currently his most senior student and the last of the Taiji SD dinosaurs that use to train with him (feeling kind of like the subject of the Jethro Tull song "too old to rock and roll to young to die" in Taiji ). But I do not see anything wrong with Taiji with no SD if hat is what you enjoy.

There is a lot of SD in Chen but to do it right you need two things, someone who will show you how to do it properly and others (more than one) willing to work with you on them. And it is that "others" that is not as easy to find as one might think.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As a bit of a side note; I started training Taiji with my sifu again and for the first time in a long time nothing hurt AND I can see . I am a bit hesitant to say this, but I really think I'm back to training seriously again... and it feels darn good too

 

[Argus]

For me, and this is just me, I am not trying to change minds here, the only thing empty hand that training weapons has really taught me is what to do with the empty hand that is not holding a jian or dao.

Aye, that depends entirely on the particular empty hand art and weapon, I think.

I just found a ton of similarities in concept and principle between fencing and Wing Chun; both emphasize centerline theory, feeling through the bind (or bridge), and lat-sau jik chung. In fact, I think the saying loi lau hoi sung; lat sau jik chung applies just as well to fencing as it does to WC.

But then there are other weapon arts like saber, kali, or European messer and dussack that break many of these principles, and many more empty hand arts that never contained them to begin with.

 

[Flying Crane]

Are you looking at this purely in regards to taiji weapons forms, or weapons in general, or forms in general?

For myself, it seems that people look at a form as something to master. I see a form as a tool that helps you gain mastery of what you do. But the form itself isn't a product to be "mastered". This goes for weapons as well as empty-hand. It's like a toolbox with a hammer, saw, power drill, screwdriver, and with those tools you can build a house. But building the house is the point, not polishing the tools. The form is the toolbox. Your skill is the house you build.

The forms help you understand what you are working to accomplish. The forms are not a list or a curriculum of techniques that you must have. They suggest techniques, but do not mandate techniques. Once you have that skill, you don't actually need the forms anymore, tho they can be useful to keep your skills sharp. But at that point they have accomplished their purpose and you can let them go if you want. And no, you do not actually need them at all if you have another method that works for you. But this is how I see it.

Dunno if that helps. Let me know a bit more where you are coming from.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Are you looking at this purely in regards to taiji weapons forms, or weapons in general, or forms in general?

For myself, it seems that people look at a form as something to master. I see a form as a tool that helps you gain mastery of what you do. But the form itself isn't a product to be "mastered". This goes for weapons as well as empty-hand. It's like a toolbox with a hammer, saw, power drill, screwdriver, and with those tools you can build a house. But building the house is the point, not polishing the tools. The form is the toolbox. Your skill is the house you build.

The forms help you understand what you are working to accomplish. The forms are not a list or a curriculum of techniques that you must have. They suggest techniques, but do not mandate techniques. Once you have that skill, you don't actually need the forms anymore, tho they can be useful to keep your skills sharp. But at that point they have accomplished their purpose and you can let them go if you want. And no, you do not actually need them at all if you have another method that works for you. But this is how I see it.

Dunno if that helps. Let me know a bit more where you are coming from.

Not the form, I know what those are for, I am talking practicality of a the weapons in the 21st century, as they apply to me. Not looking to change views on training forms or CMA weapons. I have been doing both for years and enjoyed it for a long time, but I have had time to think about things and now that I am back training I will train weapons forms to get my understanding of those weapons back. But there will be a point were I will stop using them and trying to apply them to SD (and there is a lot of SD in them, you just have to think about what it was originally used against) I will go to using a cane, stick or short staff and then training those with SD in mind against things you are more likely to come across if you happen to be unlucky enough to find yourself in the position to have to use them.

The Dao opened up a lot to me once I realized what it was actually used against, but I do not think there are a lot of people out there looking to attack someone with a 9 foot long spear these days

 

[blindsage]

I'm more into the practical and SD side of things, hence I'm not a big fan of most Taiji weapons. Not saying they don't have application, but we don't really train for it with weapons. My sigung was a swordsman and really new how to use the jian and apparently loved it. My sifu can and does teach the applications, but it's not the same as really using it. We don't really do much practical training with it, so I kinda feel like it's pointless. I've also been told there are other benefits that teach you things that are beneficial to your empty hand methods. That great, but I'm just not that interested. I've done some jian, some dao, some staff as well as Bagua weapons (dao, jian and staff, as well as deer horn knives and needles, the last two I really like), but unlike our empty hand practice, there just isn't enough practical application for me in our weapons practice. It just doesn't do a lot for me because of this.

 

[pete]

Lots of good points and discussion throughout this thread. I would just add my 2-cents that weapons training, just like empty-hand self-defense training, in the internal arts is a more circular methodology than the linear or sequential methodologies that most of us have be indoctrinated in throughout our lifetime's educational experiences. Therefore, the references to 'practicality' or 'usefulness' are simply frustrations of not seeing the forest through all those trees...

Rather than looking at the forms and training exercises from an 'applications' mindset, look more as if it were a longer term methodology towards mastery of the body, energy and fighting spirit. Yes the weapon becomes an extension of the physical body, one's energy and of the fighting spirit. Rather than practicality or usefulness of the pieces, try to see the value of the journey.

 

[blindsage]

Lots of good points and discussion throughout this thread. I would just add my 2-cents that weapons training, just like empty-hand self-defense training, in the internal arts is a more circular methodology than the linear or sequential methodologies that most of us have be indoctrinated in throughout our lifetime's educational experiences. Therefore, the references to 'practicality' or 'usefulness' are simply frustrations of not seeing the forest through all those trees...

Rather than looking at the forms and training exercises from an 'applications' mindset, look more as if it were a longer term methodology towards mastery of the body, energy and fighting spirit. Yes the weapon becomes an extension of the physical body, one's energy and of the fighting spirit. Rather than practicality or usefulness of the pieces, try to see the value of the journey.

The whole 'circular methodology' thing doesn't hold a lot of water....for me, personally. My sifu makes a point through everything he teaches, "form follows function". These are absolutely fighting arts at there base. Everything else is icing. If we aren't able to learn the 'practical application' of a movement, that movement is empty. The benefits accrue through correct practice as a martial art. It isn't missing the forest for the trees, it's the whole point. IMA without the active martial component isn't IMA. Missing the forest for the trees is the opposite, seeing these arts through a lens of 'mastery of the body, energy and fighting spirit', is missing the point and putting the cart before the horse. These ARE fighting arts at there core and all the other benefits that are gained come as mastery of that develops and are addendum to that core element. To truly and deeply understand IMA, they should be approached first and foremost from a 'practical application' perspective. Just my 2 cents.

 

[mograph]

Maybe movements have dual purposes?
A move that has martial applications may also serve as a practice tool for integrating one's body mechanics?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Maybe movements have dual purposes?
A move that has martial applications may also serve as a practice tool for integrating one's body mechanics?

The 2 are synonymous, that is if you want to do it properly, at no point am I saying they are not. What I am saying is that for practical Martial applications in the 21st century it makes more sense, once you understand the weapons you are training, to use (train with) something else like a cane or a short staff or a stick. No frustration, no forest, no trees....Taijiquan use to be, and the way I have been trained, still is a martial art

 

[Flying Crane]

Lots of good points and discussion throughout this thread. I would just add my 2-cents that weapons training, just like empty-hand self-defense training, in the internal arts is a more circular methodology than the linear or sequential methodologies that most of us have be indoctrinated in throughout our lifetime's educational experiences. Therefore, the references to 'practicality' or 'usefulness' are simply frustrations of not seeing the forest through all those trees...

Rather than looking at the forms and training exercises from an 'applications' mindset, look more as if it were a longer term methodology towards mastery of the body, energy and fighting spirit. Yes the weapon becomes an extension of the physical body, one's energy and of the fighting spirit. Rather than practicality or usefulness of the pieces, try to see the value of the journey.

The whole 'circular methodology' thing doesn't hold a lot of water....for me, personally. My sifu makes a point through everything he teaches, "form follows function". These are absolutely fighting arts at there base. Everything else is icing. If we aren't able to learn the 'practical application' of a movement, that movement is empty. The benefits accrue through correct practice as a martial art. It isn't missing the forest for the trees, it's the whole point. IMA without the active martial component isn't IMA. Missing the forest for the trees is the opposite, seeing these arts through a lens of 'mastery of the body, energy and fighting spirit', is missing the point and putting the cart before the horse. These ARE fighting arts at there core and all the other benefits that are gained come as mastery of that develops and are addendum to that core element. To truly and deeply understand IMA, they should be approached first and foremost from a 'practical application' perspective. Just my 2 cents.

both are correct, in my opinion.

 

[pete]

Blindsage - after reading your response and re-reading my last post, I must clarify, especially where it is that we agree and where I think we may tend to differ:

Without a doubt, first and foremost, Tai Chi is a MARTIAL ART. Training with Martial Intent is central to the extent of any other benefit gained through its practice. Training as a physical exercise or some type of wellness routine without martial intent is lacking that which makes the art complete and whole. In my opinion, you are better off doing something else, rather than dancing through tai chi chuan without training as a martial art.

That includes weapons practice.

However, just as in empty hands practice, sword practice also contains elements of training that are obscured from a direct fighting application. Sure we can practice and illustrate how each individual move MAY be used for self defense, but in MANY cases the value is not in that 'application', but in a longer term development of the physical body, energy patterns, and fighting spirit... so that after YEARS of form practice and spontaneity training, an infinite number of 'applications' will emerge from relatively few and finite examples found within the forms.

That is the value of the circular method, or as my teacher would say 'it is, it is not, it is', covering the same ground on recurring basis, each time with a new level of understanding and level of training that allows the body to absorb more and more until it feels as though everything has changes... then, once that level is better understood, you realize that the only thing that has changed is YOU.

Pete.

 

[zzj]

The 2 are synonymous, that is if you want to do it properly, at no point am I saying they are not. What I am saying is that for practical Martial applications in the 21st century it makes more sense, once you understand the weapons you are training, to use (train with) something else like a cane or a short staff or a stick. No frustration, no forest, no trees....Taijiquan use to be, and the way I have been trained, still is a martial art

Maybe it's time for Taijiquan to incorporate more contemporary day to day items into the corpus of weapon forms like umbrellas, baseball bats, bar stools and heck, maybe even using your hand held devices as improvised weapons. Looking forward to learning my Chen Style 32 step iPad form already.