Weapon fight is the CMA goal

[Oily Dragon]

No I shouldn't, because people back then had imaginations and artistic expressions as well. Just like this image which isn't about martial arts, it's a story picture. People play music and had other forms of entertainment.

"Just like this image which isn't about martial arts"

Look at the image again and tell me it's not about a martial art.

 

[Hanzou]

So what you're saying is, you need to.

If your opinions are limited to Youtube, you're stuck in the mud, Alabama style. One tire spins, the other does nothin.

I’ve been involved in martial arts for the majority of my life. Why would you think my opinions are only limited to YouTube? I’m simply using YT as evidence.

You should form your opinions from the experience of people like Roy Nelson. Why is Roy's iron chin kung fu superior to your own fighting skills? Let's start there.

Again, Roy Nelson has a pretty bad MMA record. He isn’t really someone I would point to as an example of Kung Fu in MMA. I respect him as a fighter, but he probably should have spent more time learning something a bit more useful than “iron chin”.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Again, Roy Nelson has a pretty bad MMA record. He isn’t really someone I would point to as an example of Kung Fu in MMA. I respect him as a fighter, but he probably should have spent more time learning something a bit more useful than “iron chin”.

Nelson has a 23-19 pro record (would have been 23-14 if he had retired from fighting at age 41 like a normal person), much of that fighting at the highest levels of the sport, was IFL champion, was winner of The Ultimate Fighter in 2009, and has wins against some very tough competitors. He's past his prime and was never one of the top 5 in the world, but he was a very good fighter. He may not look that great if you only compare him to modern UFC champions, but I'd rate him easily above 99% of the pro fighters in the world.

(Obviously, he has learned much more than "iron chin/iron body" methods. He's a solid BJJ black belt and gets top-notch boxing coaching. I don't know if his iron chin really comes from his kung fu training or not, but anybody who can go to a decision with prime Junior dos Santos definitely can take a hit.)

 

[Flying Crane]

Chinese martial arts started out as 100% weapons based thousands of years BC, and then around the Ming Dynasty empty handed "styles" evolved, by philosophical pacifists who happened to be drawn into endless dynastic warfare. And punching people in the face is very much all over the Chinese martial arts. There are dozens of "choi" for every occasion.

I think any time you are talking about what happened “thousands of years BC” and you use absolutes like 100%, you are probably wrong. We do not know, with that level of accuracy, what was going on that long ago.

People have been fighting each other all over the globe, since humans first evolved. I suspect the first blow was struck with a hand or a foot. Probably pretty quickly it was determined that a weapon gives a distinct advantage. Sticks and rocks were used. From that point on, I’m feel certain there was a mix of armed and unarmed fighting. Chinese martial arts, along with every other method on the planet, came from this pre-historic origin. I do not accept that Chinese martial arts from thousands of years BC were 100% weapons systems.

People knew that they needed to defend themselves, their families and clans and villages. So they practiced fighting methods. I would not be surprised if emphasis was put on weapons, for their advantage. But I am sure empty-hand was also part of the picture.

I also suspect that organized and sophisticated methodologies were developed later in history.

To argue that Kung fu can't be used for this or that is really stupid. Kung fu can conquer anything, and if you think Kung fu can't be used for fighting, you've only seen bad kung fu.

This, I can agree with.

To quote Roy Nelson, MMA legend, "I know my iron-body kung fu made my chin". You go tell him he's wrong.

This, I won’t comment on. I know nothing about Roy Nelson, I’ve never heard of him. Not surprising, as I don’t follow MMA.

 

[Flying Crane]

You should. It's all we really have from 400 years ago. There are multiple "bow and arrow" stances predating modern photography but Juk Meen Jin Choi is called "bow and arrow" for a reason.

Here is a very famous Southern master illustrated for purposes of instruction in the early 20th century, you can easily see how the "bow and arrow" stance pictured here (whether you call it Gong Ma Bo, Gung Gi Bo, Ji Ng Ma Bo) originates from a long-range archer's position. It's also one of the major Southern bridges (Juk Kiu, the "direct" bridge).

If you can't, maybe you've never fired a bow, which isn't all that uncommon in the 21st century, so nothing to be ashamed of. If you have, just drop into the stance and pretend you have a longbow. It'll click. If you can understand this hanzi, it'll click even more.

I do not believe that illustrated posture comes from actual archery practice. I believe it comes from a recognized similarity to what might be an archery posture, and the name was given as a descriptive reference. In my lifelong archery practice, I’ve never hit a stance quite like that. The leg position in the illustration looks more like a square horse, which I personally find to be not particularly right for archery. That is not a posture that I have ever seen called a “bow and arrow stance”.

 

[Flying Crane]

"Just like this image which isn't about martial arts"

Look at the image again and tell me it's not about a martial art.

We addressed this in posts 26 and 27.

Sure, it is a depiction of archery. But when you understand what the illustration is, a scene from a legend, and without knowing if the artist had any skill or training in archery, it cannot be presumed to be an accurate depiction of an archery stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

"Just like this image which isn't about martial arts"

Look at the image again and tell me it's not about a martial art.

"Just like this image which isn't about martial arts"

Look at the image again and tell me it's not about a martial art.

All of this and not one work of Martial Arts Instruction or mention that this picture represents Martial arts.

The Lady in the Podcast tells the story of TianGou 天狗 Podcast: Ep 86: Heavenly Dog


Source: World History Facts

"Qing Dynasty painting of Zhang Xian shooting a pebble bow (kind of like a slingshot) at the tiangou. The tiangou, or “heavenly dog,” was responsible in Chinese myth for eating the sun or moon during an eclipse. Zhang was a mythical figure who kept watch for the dog and would chase him away, ending the eclipse."

This picture isn't about Martial arts. The truth begins at 0:13

Tiangou is a creature — depicted as a dog or meteor — in Chinese folklore that ate the moon or sun during an eclipse. Its name translates directly to “Heavenly Dog” and, in addition to eating celestial bodies, Tiangou was assigned the task of guarding the gates of heaven. Tiangou’s enormous size made him an obvious choice for the task; however, that same characteristic struck fear in the heart of humanity.
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
Zhang Xian — another supernatural folklore character, tasked with the protection of children (especially boys) — defended humans from Tiangou during eclipses. He shot arrows at the massive dog, deterring the animal from devouring the moon or sun. In addition to Zhang Xian, the ancient Chinese would beat drums and light firecrackers to scare Tiangou out of the sky. We know the ancient Chinese took these events seriously as Chinese astronomers have kept records of solar eclipses for over 4,000 years!"

Source: https://medium.com/minute-mythology/tiangou-celestial-chinese-dog-7ea1e812a6f3



China folklore Source: Eat the Sun: Eclipse tales down the years

The origins likely come from ancient Chinese folklore, where a heavenly black dog called Tian Gou (heavenly dog), was depicted as trying to devour the sun.
Since eclipses were omens of great change, fending off sun-eating dogs was serious business. As such, royal astronomers at the emperor’s court were charged with shooting arrows, banging pots and making whatever noise they could to scare off this eclipsing canine.

Despite their efforts, the tale of the heavenly dog has persisted. 20th century Chinese poet Guo Moruo wrote on Tian Gou:

I am a heavenly dog! I eat up the Moon,

I eat up the Sun.

I eat up all the planets, I eat up the universe.

I become what I am!

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think any time you are talking about what happened “thousands of years BC” and you use absolutes like 100%, you are probably wrong. We do not know, with that level of accuracy, what was going on that long ago.

Nah it's just him not doing research and looking at pictures and thinking that he knows the truth behind it based on what he thinks.

People knew that they needed to defend themselves, their families and clans and villages. So they practiced fighting methods. I would not be surprised if emphasis was put on weapons, for their advantage. But I am sure empty-hand was also part of the picture.

Weapons were probably born from tools. Things like hunting wild animals or protection from wild animals would probably be on the top of the list. If you had to defend your self against a big cat then having a good pointy stick can make a big difference. If you didn't have a big stick then having something to keep the lion off of you also becomes useful. Anything that can be used as a shield. If it wasn't a big cat then we can always look for pack animals that hunt. If you can use a tool to kill animals then it wouldn't take much longer to figure out you could do the same thing to a person, it now moves from tool to weapon.

I do not believe that illustrated posture comes from actual archery practice. I believe it comes from a recognized similarity to what might be an archery posture, and the name was given as a descriptive reference. In my lifelong archery practice, I’ve never hit a stance quite like that. The leg position in the illustration looks more like a square horse, which I personally find to be not particularly right for archery. That is not a posture that I have ever seen called a “bow and arrow stance”.

This isn't really addressed to you Flying Crane. Just using it as an opportunity to drive the point into reality for Oiley before he starts explaining or telling me to go shoot an arrow around a bunch of kids with bad hair cuts.

That picture was drawn as an illustration of a mythological being and a mythological hero. It has nothing to do with Martial Arts

Just like the picture below doesn't have anything to do with how Greeks acted in battle or how spears were used. This is actually an ancient drawing of Zeus & Aegina. It's an ancient illustration of a story. Humans have been telling stories about mythological beings since Day One. Many of these stories were told as ways to explain how the world works. They were entertaining and some had lessons behind him. Because if you want to really have someone remember a valuable life lesson on morality or inspiration, then you create a story. If you can't explain something then you developed a story of what you think it is. Such stories were illustrated on walls and pottery and made into statues.

Like everything else ancient drawings, paintings, and illustrations must be put into context. It may look like it has something to do with martial arts, but it can just as easily be something totally unrelated.

 

[Flying Crane]

@JowGaWolf take another look at my post, #65, I was referring to a different picture than I suspect you think I was. I agree with what you are saying with regard to the other picture. But my comment in that post was about a different one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@JowGaWolf take another look at my post, #65, I was referring to a different picture than I suspect you think I was. I agree with what you are saying with regard to the other picture. But my comment in that post was about a different one.

Yep thanks. I goofed on that one.


Edit @Flying Crane
I read the original post that you were referring with 5% attention. Because I know where that picture comes from and that picture has a different purpose. It's less about the picture and more about the name, and people often name things because of similarities of how they look and not how they function. For example, Preying Mantis, Leopards Fist, Tiger Claw.

Are just names. Leopards don't make fist nor punch. Tigers actually have claws and humans do not. Fingernails don't count because they are structurally wrong and weak for claw function.. Praying mantis doesn't have the same structure has human limbs.

So when I see a martial arts names like "Strong Bow shoots Arrow" it's more descriptive than functional.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My thoughts on this image. If this was about archery then he would have have a Bow, Arrow, and a horse. But it's not. People give names to things to help communicate what they are talking about. This "looks like archery" but it's not. The name is given because it looks similar to someone on a horse shooting a bow. My guess is that an person on a horse with an arrow was something that was common to see, and because it looked like that, this posture was named as it is. It's easy to remember and it looks like something they commonly saw.

In 2020 people still use the name but for many it doesn't make sense to what we commonly see. It wouldn't be uncommon for a modern martial arts to rename an older technique. For example, Joe Rogan renaming "Shadowless kick" to Oblique kick, or how Muay Thai calls the same kick "Push kick to knee."

This same posture can be seen in the 8 Brocades Quigong Exercises.
Drawing Bow
Drawing Bow let arrow fly
Draw the Bow to Shoot the Eagle
Draw Bow like Shooting a Hawk

These are descriptive terms of how the motion should be done. They have very little to do with with actually archery. You could do this exercise all day long and still suck really bad at actually shooting a Bow. Sort of like you can practice forms for 20 years and still suck really bad at fighting. Sometimes names are given so that people can remember what you are referring to. Like Dog, Cat, Horse. You can sit in a horse stance all day and it'll never translate into actually riding a horse.

 

[JowGaWolf]

wrong post

 

[Oily Dragon]

I’ve been involved in martial arts for the majority of my life. Why would you think my opinions are only limited to YouTube? I’m simply using YT as evidence.

That is why you fail.

 

[Oily Dragon]

My thoughts on this image. If this was about archery then he would have have a Bow, Arrow, and a horse. But it's not. People give names to things to help communicate what they are talking about.

It's an archery stance.

What do you mean by "if this was about archery then he would have have a Bow, Arrow, and a horse".

What?

 

[Oily Dragon]

This picture isn't about Martial arts. The truth begins at 0:13

The truth doesn't begin 13 seconds in, and that is a picture is somebody shooting a bow and arrow.

Not about martial arts? It's not a picture of a Unicorn.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's an archery stance.

What do you mean by "if this was about archery then he would have have a Bow, Arrow, and a horse".

What?

As an archery stance it is highly exaggerated at best. I’ve been an archer since I was a child, I’ve never hit a proper square horse in doing archery. A square horse is uncomfortable and awkward in archery.

That posture is so-named because the hand motions are reminiscent of pulling a bow.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's an archery stance.

What do you mean by "if this was about archery then he would have have a Bow, Arrow, and a horse".

What?

This is another case of Descriptive vs Actual and you keep confusing the two because you do not distinguish between the two and your kung fu will suffer. This is the same mindset that many people fall into when trying to fight using TMA techniques. They think the Form is the exact manner of how one actually fights. But in reality, the techniques are more like a descriptive representation of what is actually used in fighting.

The motions in the form are similar to the motion used in fighting, but they are not the same.
Drawing a bow Kung Fu is similar to the motion in Archery but they are not the same.

Standing in horse in Kung Fu is similar to sitting on a horse but they are not the same.
Knowing one does not mean you know how to correctly use the other.

It has even been said my many martial arts Instructors and teachers all over the world. "That in application, the technique takes the shape of the form."

 

[JowGaWolf]

The truth doesn't begin 13 seconds in, and that is a picture is somebody shooting a bow and arrow.

Not about martial arts? It's not a picture of a Unicorn.

If you are talking about the guy shooting the dog in the sky then you clearly haven't been looking at the links

 

[Oily Dragon]

As an archery stance it is highly exaggerated at best. I’ve been an archer since I was a child, I’ve never hit a proper square horse in doing archery. A square horse is uncomfortable and awkward in archery.

That posture is so-named because the hand motions are reminiscent of pulling a bow.

Not a square horse. Gi Ng Ma (Gong Gi Bo in Jow Ga Kuen) are not square horse stances. These are front toe aligned with back heel, while pivoting the waist at a 90 degree angle to face the target (Juk Meen).

The posture is so named because it is a situational archery stance like this one, the type used by hunters and warriors and not target hobbyists.



Like trying to fire while standing on a 45 degree incline, you could not possibly do this with a standard square target shooter's stance.

You are witnessing how the Shaolin preserved the strength and conditioning training of countless generations of archery soldiers.

 

[Oily Dragon]

If you are talking about the guy shooting the dog in the sky then you clearly haven't been looking at the links

I don't need "links".