WC Defense against Round House

Yoshiyahu

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I was woundering How you guys practice defense against round house kicks that come fast and hard?

What strategies do you guys use?

How do you practice it?

How successful are the techniques in sparring a skilled kicker?

What techniques do you use. Kwun Sau? Gan Sau? Pak Sau? or otheres?
 

futsaowingchun

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I was woundering How you guys practice defense against round house kicks that come fast and hard?

What strategies do you guys use?

How do you practice it?

How successful are the techniques in sparring a skilled kicker?

What techniques do you use. Kwun Sau? Gan Sau? Pak Sau? or otheres?

I like to use Kwan Sao while I'm moving in. It's very safe and it covers a large blocking erea.
 

qwksilver61

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diagonally step forward,while facing your opponent, tan-sun, as soon as his fore arm makes contact with your lead arm, you slide forward the rear leg adduct (sideling) and let the driving force of the roundhouse turn you and your sun punch into his face follow up with a barrage of punches.... serve with toast and jam (three months into Wing Tsun,many moons ago,in a dark cave on a hilltop.....)
 

mook jong man

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I was woundering How you guys practice defense against round house kicks that come fast and hard?

What strategies do you guys use?

How do you practice it?

How successful are the techniques in sparring a skilled kicker?

What techniques do you use. Kwun Sau? Gan Sau? Pak Sau? or otheres?

The two safest ones I believe are both leg raising deflections . The first one is done by raising a Dai Sau , and your leg at the same time , knee to elbow so there is no gap . The arm and leg are raised on the same side their kick is coming from , when you raise your leg you are aggressively making contact with your shin into the soft part of the inner thigh by under kicking their kick .

As you make contact pivot with your support foot and slightly thrust your hip forward , the action of your leg raising under theirs takes the force out of their kick and the slight hip thrust with pivot affects their balance . It is important you make contact with your shin near to the groin as the height of this area does not really change no matter the height of the kick , unless of course he's doing a jumping kick .

It is also important that your body is facing slightly towards his inner thigh for maximum resistance . After you have deflected you can drop your leg down into a stamp kick on the knee of his support leg , or use your other leg to snap kick to his groin , thrusting heel kick to groin , hook kick to thigh or low heel kick to the knee .

The second technique is pretty much like the first except instead of using the same side leg we are now using a cross leg configuration. As he kicks we raise our arm in a Dai Sau to protect our head and then we make contact in exactly the same area as before except we are raising our leg in a hook kick to attack his inner thigh region , so he kicks with right leg and I deflect with my right leg hook kick .

Raise your hook kick up high and forcefully and on contact pivot your support foot and slight hip thrust into him , as before this will take the sting out of his kick and also attack his stance and balance , it is important arm is raised high to protect your head and like before no gap between knee and elbow , after the deflection you drop your leg down to a WC low side kick to the knee or use what ever kick is suitable for the range .

The way that we usually train these deflections is to have your partner throw easy roundhouse kicks from one side to the other , in the early stages you just try to raise your leg underneath his thighs as he kicks , making contact with your shin to his inner thigh . Do this in a continuous fashion performing many repetitions , after you have the basic movement down then you start to try and manipulate his balance with your hips and pivot .

Now try the same thing with the cross leg hook kick pattern , start off easy then start to pivot and use your hips to affect his balance . After you have done this mix the patterns together so that one side is doing a leg raise and the other is doing the hook kick leg raise deflection .

When you can do them pretty smoothly start adding your follow up stamp kicks to his legs . When you feel that you are ready then it is time to start with your partner throwing random round house kicks at you with realistic speed and power.
I have seen variations of these deflections in Muay Thai but their angles are a lot more closed and they use them as a shield or block rather than a deflection and they don't attack the structure of the opponent as we do.

I find that the trick with these deflections is in my case not to think of them as a deflection at all , I prefer to think of them as an attack . You try to kick me and I will make you pay by attacking your kick with my own kick directed at a soft and vulnerable area . If you just think of it as a defencive leg raise , you never seem to do it as fast and aggressive as when you think of it as a kick.

The same applys to leg jamming as well . Like if someone goes to kick you in the groin you really want to attack their shin with your heel as opposed to just holding your leg up and guarding . I've always found the action to be faster if you think of it aggressively as a kick , your leg just seems to spring off the ground a lot quicker in my opinion .
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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We did something very similar. I agree that this is probably one of the safest choices.
 

qwksilver61

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(jumped the gun)The former post for punches.... the latter for kicks.....beat them to the draw depending on which leg they lead with,good leg men will usually not telegraph or drop the shoulder,I have seen them appear to kick to the mid section and then shoot high,(my favorite; an outside crescent kick semi circle pivot shift to a side kick to the chest)Tae Kwon Do).....my counter is to beat them to the draw...advance quickly, gum sau to the inner thigh while delivering a vicious lifting punch to the jaw.Again I have rarely seen anyone that can deliver high kicks without telegraphing,that is why I prefer the Wing Tsun kicks,we are taught not to drop the shoulder and to keep the hands in play.Two cents......
 

AceHBK

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Just watch a Master Wong training clip on youtube. :)
 

KamonGuy2

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Don't let it happen in the first place!!

I train in karate where they encorage roundhouse kicks for training, but realistically they will not work

When will you get into a streetfight? Clubs, bars? Tight jeans, crowded venues, aggressive opponents - roundhouse kicks are going to be hard to pull off

If you do come across someone who can pull them off well, just grab them and control through clinchwork and employ your sensitivity training to unbalance your opponent. He goes for a kick, you lap sao him in the other direction

Chances are though that you won't get into a fight with that kind of talent.

In training there are loads of different techniques you can use. I employ sticking legs from a knee block which basically absorbs the impact of the kick. This works well when I spar full contact with karate black belts

Never use your hands. No matter how good your base is, the leg is always stronger than the arms. It is fine in training or light sparring - you will get away with it to a degree. But when it comes to full contact and explosive kickers, you will end up hurting your hands
 

AceHBK

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Don't let it happen in the first place!!

I train in karate where they encorage roundhouse kicks for training, but realistically they will not work

When will you get into a streetfight? Clubs, bars? Tight jeans, crowded venues, aggressive opponents - roundhouse kicks are going to be hard to pull off

Chances are though that you won't get into a fight with that kind of talent.

I think you would have a lot of people disagreeing with you on them being "unrealistic"

Chances are with how popular MA's are, you very well could come into contact with someone with some skill.
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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I have heard alot of instructors say things like: "in street fights kicks rarely happen and roundhouse kicks/high kicks happen even rarely". Allthough I do agree with that to a degree, I have seen people KOed in a street fight with a high roundhouse kick to the head.

In any case you should be able to defend against kicks like that. But I agree with what Kamon is saying. I have talked with an experienced street fighter who happens to be a Teakwondo blackbelt and even he rarely uses kicks above the waist when fighting for real.

I think training should consist mostly of hand defences when training for self defence.
 

CuongNhuka

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Clubs, bars? Tight jeans, crowded venues, aggressive opponents - roundhouse kicks are going to be hard to pull off

.......

Never use your hands. No matter how good your base is, the leg is always stronger than the arms. It is fine in training or light sparring - you will get away with it to a degree. But when it comes to full contact and explosive kickers, you will end up hurting your hands

The trick is to not wear tight jeans. Wear kinda baggy jeans and go for low targets like the knee, side of the thigh, maybe the lower ribs (maybe.... maybe)

My fav way of blocking round kicks (yes, even in full contact) is to half way Pac Sao half way Fuc Sao there shin with my lead, and follow with a Fuc Sao from my rear hand, my lead becomes a punch. It works pretty well if you can shift at the right times.
 

geezer

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Don't let it happen in the first place!!

I train in karate where they encorage roundhouse kicks for training, but realistically they will not work...

When will you get into a streetfight? Clubs, bars? Tight jeans, crowded venues, aggressive opponents - roundhouse kicks are going to be hard to pull off...

You guys really nailed this one. My old sifu used to discourage us from wasting time listening to you guys from inferior lineages. LOL. Clearly, this is why... we'd find out we aren't the only ones with some good ideas. The essential points seem to be...

1. When the dude kicks, don't be in front of it, where the power is. Move inside.

2. Counter with a leg if you can, impacting against your oponent's thigh. Our basic techniques for this are called "bong gurk" and "yup gurk" but sure sound to me an awful lot like what Mook described so nicely.

3. Immediately follow, with a closing attack, either a kick to the supporting leg or aggressively blitzing him with you hands.

A couple of other observations. Even in friendly sparring... with buddies, I find my hands take a real beating when I try to use them to stop a decent round kick. The commonly advocated defenses: scissors gaun sau, cross-gum sau and (sometimes) kwun-sau, have to be applied almost perfectly or your arms will really suffer. But I guess that beats taking it in the face if, for some reason, you can't get your leg up in time. In other words, I'd reserve 'em for the classic "Oh shytt!!!" scenario.

Finally, regarding tight jeans, Kamon, at least here in the States, most of the yobs inexplicably wear their pants 5 sizes too big and cinched up under their ****, around their thighs. They can't even run without holding them up with one hand so they don't fall down. Personally, I'd pay a hard day's wages just to see someone dressed like that try and throw a high round-kick in a fight!
 
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Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

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Yea my jeans are baggy but a wear a belt. I do so I kick really well. But in a fight i wouldn't kick past the waist. My Sidai loved high kicks though he usually wore sweat pants all the time when we hung out or he wore elastic shorts. The kind like basket ball players wear. So He would be quick to knock fire from your face if he could. He loved to kick hard and high as well as low and medium.

My Sihing practices high kicks but in a fight he doesn't use them. My Sifu told me stories of his younger years when he did use high kicks in fights. An it worked. He often said just because someone does Style A or B doesn't mean they can't fight. A good kicker will kick fire from your face.



You guys really nailed this one. My old sifu used to discourage us from wasting time listening to you guys from inferior lineages. LOL. Clearly, this is why... we'd find out we aren't the only ones with some good ideas. The essential points seem to be...

1. When the dude kicks, don't be in front of it, where the power is. Move inside.

2. Counter with a leg if you can, impacting against your oponent's thigh. Our basic techniques for this are called "bong gurk" and "yup gurk" but sure sound to me an awful lot like what Mook described so nicely.

3. Immediately follow, with a closing attack, either a kick to the supporting leg or aggressively blitzing him with you hands.

A couple of other observations. Even in friendly sparring... with buddies, I find my hands take a real beating when I try to use them to stop a decent round kick. The commonly advocated defenses: scissors gaun sau, cross-gum sau and (sometimes) kwun-sau, have to be applied almost perfectly or your arms will really suffer. But I guess that beats taking it in the face if, for some reason, you can't get your leg up in time. In other words, I'd reserve 'em for the classic "Oh shytt!!!" scenario.

Finally, regarding tight jeans, Kamon, at least here in the States, most of the yobs inexplicably wear their pants 5 sizes too big and cinched up under their ****, around their thighs. They can't even run without holding them up with one hand so they don't fall down. Personally, I'd pay a hard day's wages just to see someone dressed like that try and throw a high round-kick in a fight!
 

KamonGuy2

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Let me put it this way, I fight in knockdown tournaments. Roundhouse kicks struggle to have any relevance

Like I said, if your opponent is standing still, or if you are doing light sparring then yeah they work a treat. But for an aggressive streetfight, you will be hard pressed to use them

I train kicks every day and spar with karate blackbelts Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. If I stood still and offered no defence then yeah they would take my head off with ease. But that won't happen in a fight

People have tried kicking me before in a nightclub. One guy fell over. Another couldn't get his leg up and ended up in a bad position. Another guys kick was so weak because he couldn't get any leverage that he ended up hurting himself more than he hurt me

I'm not denying that it takes great skill to be able to do roundhouse kicks in dojos, but as a street tool they are about as much use as a thumb strike
 
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Yoshiyahu

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I don't know. When i was beginner in WC I had a friend who took some Muay Thai. He wasn't a rated fighter. We were high school kids. He was a novice in MT. But he had a fight one time in GYM class. This guy had punched him in the nose for fouling him in basket ball. The Muay Thai guy didn't know he was going to punch. Once he got his nosed punched he roundhouse kicked the other guy in stomach so fast. The guy immediately drop his fist hunched over an yelled. His eyes got really big like he was going to pass out. Then he regained his composer an tried to wrestle the my friend the Muay Thai guy. But he just held on to him...standing up...he was too tired to fight anymore. I think the Muay Guy toook his breath away. It all happen so fast.


So i guess it depends. But my friend was a novice at the time. I could imagine what a skilled Muay Thai guy could do.

Let me put it this way, I fight in knockdown tournaments. Roundhouse kicks struggle to have any relevance

Like I said, if your opponent is standing still, or if you are doing light sparring then yeah they work a treat. But for an aggressive streetfight, you will be hard pressed to use them

I train kicks every day and spar with karate blackbelts Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. If I stood still and offered no defence then yeah they would take my head off with ease. But that won't happen in a fight

People have tried kicking me before in a nightclub. One guy fell over. Another couldn't get his leg up and ended up in a bad position. Another guys kick was so weak because he couldn't get any leverage that he ended up hurting himself more than he hurt me

I'm not denying that it takes great skill to be able to do roundhouse kicks in dojos, but as a street tool they are about as much use as a thumb strike
 

CuongNhuka

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People have tried kicking me before in a nightclub. One guy fell over. Another couldn't get his leg up and ended up in a bad position. Another guys kick was so weak because he couldn't get any leverage that he ended up hurting himself more than he hurt me

Thats because you (a skilled experienced fighter) is better capable of defending against a kick then those guys (probably unskilled inexperienced fighters) are at throwing them. It does not dimish the usefulness of the attack. I have a feeling that if my 170 lb body (not to mention my muscle power) were to come swinging at the outside of your knee, it would be a really useful attack. Your brocken knee would proof my point. Punch high, kick low. Works everytime. If they defend there face, they loose there knee. If they defend there knee, they get hit in the face. Kinda like 'one hand helps another'.

I'm not denying that it takes great skill to be able to do roundhouse kicks in dojos, but as a street tool they are about as much use as a thumb strike

Next time you get wrapped up with somebody, stick your thumb somewere. Armpit, groin, eye socket, base of the neck, (depending on the situation) the inside of the elbow or back of the knee. Not useful in every situation, but certaintly useful.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Wow so much wisdom where do i enroll..


You sound like a real fighter...

Great.

Thats because you (a skilled experienced fighter) is better capable of defending against a kick then those guys (probably unskilled inexperienced fighters) are at throwing them. It does not dimish the usefulness of the attack. I have a feeling that if my 170 lb body (not to mention my muscle power) were to come swinging at the outside of your knee, it would be a really useful attack. Your brocken knee would proof my point. Punch high, kick low. Works everytime. If they defend there face, they loose there knee. If they defend there knee, they get hit in the face. Kinda like 'one hand helps another'.



Next time you get wrapped up with somebody, stick your thumb somewere. Armpit, groin, eye socket, base of the neck, (depending on the situation) the inside of the elbow or back of the knee. Not useful in every situation, but certaintly useful.
 

CuongNhuka

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Wow so much wisdom where do i enroll..

At your nearest Cuong Nhu Dojo, lol.

It's not that I'm a great fighter, it's that Kamon has found that set combination of techniques, drills, and ideas work really well for him. That is a good thing, but he seems to have forgotten that works well for him, might not work well for others. Saying that a roundhouse kick will never work in a real fight shows that he hasn't seen too many Muay Thai or WTF fights, as both involve alot of high Roundhouse kicks. Saying that they wont work because of a crowd is also kind of pointless since people tend to give fighters space.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Well yes. I have to agree. There are very skilled Martial Artist in every art.

In my opinion, I do not think its possible to assume that ever Wing Chun Fighter will be advoid getting

Taking down by Judo Master.
Round Kicked by a skilled Tae Kwon Do Master.
Hit with a Elbow or Knee from a skilled Muay Thai guy.
Placed in arm Joint lock by skilled Chin Na Guy.
Are being Submitted by Japanese Jiujitsu guy.

Just because you practice Wing Chun and cross train a little ground fighting doesn't mean you Mr.Invincible. Those who train all those different styles also prepare to fight against people like you and all others. All that really matters is who has the most skill and experience.

Yes so true a skilled Muay Thai could break your ribs with a good round house kick. An to believe your going to be able to block every strike be it kick or punch is unrealistic. You may be able to block some but everyone gets hit by someone at some time or another. An even a someone who practices Round houses one thousand times a day will be able to land a quick round house against you.

My Warning is for those who think because someone trains a long distance fighting style is weak. Think again. Everyone trains to be the best.

Yeas So in a fight there is no real rule. Anything goes. Some one skilled at high kicks may be able to land two or three power kicks to your face. Be it a high round kick,Axe kick and depending on how tall he is it may be a front kick. Every week at class this one kid from vietnam demostrates how well he kick high. An he kicks fast. The best thing to do with him is give him No space. But we have sharing inside fighting with him too. So he is getting good on the inside as well as outside. So getting close won't end the threat. An when you try to get out of there then his long leg extension works again.

A skilled person a long range kicks who also cross trains in WC will be very hard to fight in standing combat if you are only a short range fighter or clinch fighter.

At your nearest Cuong Nhu Dojo, lol.

It's not that I'm a great fighter, it's that Kamon has found that set combination of techniques, drills, and ideas work really well for him. That is a good thing, but he seems to have forgotten that works well for him, might not work well for others. Saying that a roundhouse kick will never work in a real fight shows that he hasn't seen too many Muay Thai or WTF fights, as both involve alot of high Roundhouse kicks. Saying that they wont work because of a crowd is also kind of pointless since people tend to give fighters space.
 

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