Was Rokas wrong about bujinkan?

Steve

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I’d say passing on the lessons (mindset and movements) from its history
That sounds fair to me. Cultural preservation is a terrific reason to do things. One might argue that HEMA isn't very practical, but it's still pretty cool.
 

drop bear

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That sounds fair to me. Cultural preservation is a terrific reason to do things. One might argue that HEMA isn't very practical, but it's still pretty cool.

Is HEMA accurate?

I mean I assume there is nobody learning to be a peasant for example.

Which still doesn't necessarily matter. As an inaccurate example still has merit. It is why we have myths.
 

Dirty Dog

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Is HEMA accurate?
To varying degrees. How accurate will vary from group to group and person to person.
I mean I assume there is nobody learning to be a peasant for example.
What does that have to do with HEMA? HEMA is basically about combat based on the weapons of a given time and place.
 

drop bear

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To varying degrees. How accurate will vary from group to group and person to person.

What does that have to do with HEMA? HEMA is basically about combat based on the weapons of a given time and place.

So hema isn't about cultural preservation.
And more about a story.
 

drop bear

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But they are few and far between and to be honest if you want to compete in MMA then you'll be more successful studying MMA than Bujinkan (very limited ground work in Bujinkan, gloves screw up a lot of the techniques etc etc)

There is a set of MMA ground work that comes from folk wrestling and apparently Sambo. Which is a much more self defence focused meta.


So this idea that an overly complex submission style of grappling is the only way to be successful at MMA is not exactly accurate.
 

Nigel

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Any martial art should be much more than beating someone in the octagon. the benefits of any training include physical and mental health, flexibility, and fitness.

Tai Chi when sped up is a fighting art, but its general purpose is for fitness and flexibility both in body and mind.

Ninjutsu is about winning despite the obstacles, The samurai and the shogunate held all the power, to openly resist them was to invite death, so the ninja used stealth to fight back.

Its not always about punches, kicks, and throws, sometimes winning is in evasion, stealth and when you must fight, doing so in a way that gives you the space you need to escape and survive.

Avoiding a fight is just as valid a winning tactic as beating someone up, and with the potential legal battle that often follows a fight, is the better path for everyone.

In a world of CCTV cameras everywhere making any damage you do look like an accident can be important in the big picture, knowledge of body mechanics and leverage comes into play here.

For me Ninjutsu is much more than how to punch or break a bone, its about winning despite the odds, winning takes many forms and changes from situation to situation. Sometimes winning is getting away with no one being hurt, sometimes its bluffing your way out of a fight, or making the aggressor decide not to prosecute their anger on the street and in the courts.

Physical fitness, situational awareness, a large selection of tactical options to choose from in any given situation, including not being caught either by the opponent or the law, these are as important to me as beating someone in a fist fight. MMA and the like are for the young with something to prove. Ninjutsu is a way of life and is for life.
 

dunc

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There is a set of MMA ground work that comes from folk wrestling and apparently Sambo. Which is a much more self defence focused meta.


So this idea that an overly complex submission style of grappling is the only way to be successful at MMA is not exactly accurate.
Hi
Apologies if I gave the impression that I thought that one needed an overly complex submission grappling style to be successful in MMA
I totally agree with your point and was simply stating that the Bujinkan doesn’t cover ground work enough to be successful in the MMA format
 

dunc

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Any martial art should be much more than beating someone in the octagon. the benefits of any training include physical and mental health, flexibility, and fitness.
I agree and feel this is an extremely important point when considering the Bujinkan
A key part of our tradition / transmission is the mindset or approach to life (hence the “do” of Budo or “po” in ninpo )
In many ways I feel this is the most valuable part of Hatsumi-sensei has been teaching. It’s helped me in my career, in coping with tragedy, in

Tai Chi when sped up is a fighting art, but its general purpose is for fitness and flexibility both in body and mind.


Ninjutsu is about winning despite the obstacles, The samurai and the shogunate held all the power, to openly resist them was to invite death, so the ninja used stealth to fight back.
I think you should check out the history references I shared earlier
The narrative of the establishment (samurai) vs the rebels (ninja) is not really reflective of the history (other than that whole Oda family thing)
The folks in Iga (where some of our traditions originate) were a little on the fringes and had a lot of exiles and people from the losing side of history end up there which influenced how the traditions developed
Its not always about punches, kicks, and throws, sometimes winning is in evasion, stealth and when you must fight, doing so in a way that gives you the space you need to escape and survive.

Avoiding a fight is just as valid a winning tactic as beating someone up, and with the potential legal battle that often follows a fight, is the better path for everyone.

In a world of CCTV cameras everywhere making any damage you do look like an accident can be important in the big picture, knowledge of body mechanics and leverage comes into play here.

For me Ninjutsu is much more than how to punch or break a bone, its about winning despite the odds, winning takes many forms and changes from situation to situation. Sometimes winning is getting away with no one being hurt, sometimes its bluffing your way out of a fight, or making the aggressor decide not to prosecute their anger on the street and in the courts.

Physical fitness, situational awareness, a large selection of tactical options to choose from in any given situation, including not being caught either by the opponent or the law, these are as important to me as beating someone in a fist fight. MMA and the like are for the young with something to prove. Ninjutsu is a way of life and is for life.
Yes I agree with this
I tend to think of our art as teaching how to “survive against the odds” (a personal definition, not one I’ve heard Soke or the Japanese shihan use)
 

Nigel

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I think you should check out the history references I shared earlier
The narrative of the establishment (samurai) vs the rebels (ninja) is not really reflective of the history (other than that whole Oda family thing)
The folks in Iga (where some of our traditions originate) were a little on the fringes and had a lot of exiles and people from the losing side of history end up there which influenced how the traditions developed
The ninja and the samurai were indeed collaborators, however on certain occasion they did fight each other. In the 1400's the Iga and Koga Ninjas worked together to fight against the Shogun when the Rokkaku clan of Iga was being attacked. During the Tensho-Iga wars in 1581 the ninja clans were devastated by the samurai.

The ninja were essentially mercenaries and after that time the Samurai started using the ninja as mercenaries and sometimes the samurai were ninja. Samurai had a strict code (bushido) they had to adhere to so when they could not execute their required task under bushido they would become the ninja.
 

dunc

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The ninja and the samurai were indeed collaborators, however on certain occasion they did fight each other. In the 1400's the Iga and Koga Ninjas worked together to fight against the Shogun when the Rokkaku clan of Iga was being attacked. During the Tensho-Iga wars in 1581 the ninja clans were devastated by the samurai.

The ninja were essentially mercenaries and after that time the Samurai started using the ninja as mercenaries and sometimes the samurai were ninja. Samurai had a strict code (bushido) they had to adhere to so when they could not execute their required task under bushido they would become the ninja.
Hi
I think you’ll find if you research the history a bit you may widen your perspective, but the subject is a bit off topic and there are better places to explore the history than here (and I don’t have any deep or special knowledge on the subject TBH)
 

BrendanF

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so when they could not execute their required task under bushido they would become the ninja.

2v2cni.jpg
 

dunc

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FWIW I had a fascinating discussion with a Japanese mentor of mine who said that whilst there was often a thread of ethics, loyalty etc contained in budo his research suggested that in many ways Bushido was an invention during peace time to control the warriors and make sure they didn’t get any bright ideas that might upset the order of things
 
D

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Addendum to my post.

It does annoy me when somone say does 4 diffrent styles, and teaches one and act slike that one is the only one that has influenced them, ALL of them would have. It always annoys me when say a black belt in 4 styles wants to say how good this one they teach is coming from the experts podiuem and probbly did the other 3 to fill in the gaps.

thats one of the issues i have, or they did this and dont really encourage cross training. Some of the issues from martial arts come from people conflating personal experience, with what would be taught in their system, or conflating what they (at the end) learns compared to somone at the beggining or middle. (i suppose could call that elitism)

Sort of tag this onto my boxing point, If somone acts like boxing teaches grappling or uses that yo advertise boxing despite grappling not being taught, its sort of bad. Or if they mix up personal expereince with whats actually taught or present in both.

Actually i think there is a lot of this, only becoems a issue if they frown on cross training or act like the answers are there when they arent.


It's different things to different people. Just like other martial arts groups.
I have to say by definition its about what drop bear said, the preservation of (and by extension reconstruction of) hisotrical european martial arts. There is a whole subset argument about if they should be deemed preservative so restrictive or like a normal martial art(devoloping your own "style"), but i think the bulk tend to stay in the middle. you learn your own style through historical techniques like somone learning it in the time would. that and since the lineges died it will never truely be fully hisotrical, you will have some flair picked up in other martial arts you are using as the base to reconstruct it.

But that would depend where, id argue and say if you want a true martial art one about hisotrical preservation and is literally named as such is probbly not for you, same with if you want it for modern use. Unless of course a longsword or other weapon taught in it is a weapon you plan on using or you have access to and wish to learn how to use.
 

Dirty Dog

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I have to say by definition its about what drop bear said, the preservation of (and by extension reconstruction of) hisotrical european martial arts.
But you don't actually have any real training or experience in HEMA, so your opinion doesn't carry much weight.
It's rarely, if ever, sensible to try to tell other people why they participate in a given activity.
 
D

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But you don't actually have any real training or experience in HEMA, so your opinion doesn't carry much weight.
It's rarely, if ever, sensible to try to tell other people why they participate in a given activity.
Do i need it to make the argument? If your nothing like the namesake you should change the name and might as well not affiliate or call yourself HEMA. Like battle of nations isnt "hema". 540 kicks being in Meyer longsword when? (exactly)

Names matter is all i can really say. What you call yourself, affiliate with etc, matters and has some bearing.

(and i have actually seen several persons opinion in this matter anyway so /shrug)
 

Flying Crane

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In my experience, the Bujinkan had plenty of reasonably sound fundamental techniques which seem to be in line with other historical Japanese systems I've seen footage of. The specifics might be a bit stylized compared to actual application, but I could believe that somebody at some point in the past actually used something like those techniques in a real fight, and many of them could be tweaked to have a reasonable modern application. Not all of them are high-percentage moves, but they could work given the right circumstances.

Then ... there are the moves which I would be willing to bet the entirety of my bank account that nobody in the history of human fighting has ever used in a real fight. Techniques which would only work if the opponent had a sudden stroke and became paralyzed in the middle of their movement. I have a strong suspicion that these techniques were not included in the historical lineages, but were created by current instructors showing off what they can do with overly compliant students who have been conditioned to feed slow-motion, incompetent attacks and then stand still with their arms outstretched while their teacher does whatever silly stuff occurs to them. Unfortunately this isn't just limited to some insufficiently trained individuals. I've seen techniques like that taught by Hatsumi and by other instructors holding high rank in the Bujinkan.
Interesting. Ive experienced plenty of those things with other systems. I am starting to refer to them as “paper techniques.” As in: they look good on paper, but unlikely to survive beyond contact.

really, this is the stuff that convinces me that many people over-complicate fighting. The simple, straight forward stuff is far more likely to work. People need to know when to quit, when it comes to getting creative. Creativity is important, but there are limits beyond which it just becomes dysfunctional and is creativity simply for its own sake. That isn’t helpful.
 

gpseymour

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Yes, but you're saying this as if it's true for Bujinkan in a different or more profound way than for other arts.
Actually, no he didn't. He just said it messes with some techniques. And that's true of a lot of traditinoal small-joint manipulation. Most of them can still be done, but are either harder to get to or are easier to resist when wearing MMA gloves. Larger gloves make many of them impossible.

This is not a factor for systems that don't train much on small-joint manipulation (like Judo, for instance).
 
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