Something wrong in the Genbukan?

[noehnongwi]

I noticed the Genbukan is changed since 10 years ago and not for the better. For example...

Taikais feel different. They used to be more enjoyable, we’d do one Ryuha in four days and test in it on the last day. There were demonstrations of other techniques, sometimes by Soke’s old Sensei. Nowadays Taikais are just cramming in the Ryuha as quickly as possible, sometimes two or three Ryuha in one Taikai and nothing else is demonstrated. We spend an entire day doing all the tests and things are often pretty disorganised.

There used to be half a dozen Shihan at Taikais. They’d demonstrate techniques and walk around helping while we practiced them. For the last 5 years the only Shihan I seen at Taikais is Soke’s own son Kotaro Shihan. I’ve heard that all the other Shihan have left the Genbukan.

Entire dojos who were at every Taikai aren’t there anymore, no students from that school at all or their Sensei. No one talks about it but I’ve heard that several dojos have been kicked out and that their Senseis have no idea why. Or if there was a known problem they have no idea how it couldn’t be solved.

It all feels very wrong. I’m sad that Taikais have changed, that dojos have been kicked out, and that Soke has lost all his top-level students, that can’t be a good sign. I want to keep doing this martial art for all my life, but I’m worried about the Genbukan and where I stand in it. I don’t want to start over with another school after all this time or spend decades training, perhaps even become a Sensei myself one day, only then be kicked out for no reason and lose what I’ve invested.

Anyone know what’s going on in the Genbukan? Anyone have similar experiences or advice to share?

 

[Yamabushii]

I'm surprised this thread never received any replies. My first Genbukan taikai wasn't until 2015 or 2016 so unfortunately I can't comment on how they were 10 years ago. What I can comment on is that since my teacher and a bunch of us under him left the Genbukan a couple years back, we ended up connecting with a lot of X-Kan "ex-pats". In speaking with many of them, we began realizing how similar many of our stories/reasons for leaving were. I don't want to speak ill of anyone or mention others by name without their consent so I'll leave all of that stuff out, but I will say that in my less than 10 years in the Genbukan, even I noticed things taking a turn for the worst. Fortunately, many of us who left have found it as one of the best decisions we have all ever made with respect to running martial arts schools.

 

[Tony Dismukes103]

I don’t want to start over with another school after all this time or spend decades training, perhaps even become a Sensei myself one day, only then be kicked out for no reason and lose what I’ve invested.

I don't have any useful information about the internal political workings of the Genbukan (except to note that weird political in-fighting seems to be ubiquitous in the X-kans, going back to before Tanemura broke away from Hatusmi to form his own organization).

I will opine that if what you are learning in the Genbukan is valuable to you, then you won't have lost it if your dojo happens to end up splitting away from or getting kicked out of the organization. Any physical skills or life lessons you have gained are just as valid whether or not you are still officially a member of the Genbukan. I drifted away from the Bujinkan after about 10 years of training and explored a wide variety of other arts. The aspects of my Bujinkan training which I found to still hold value after I broadened my experience are still with me. I'm sure you'll find the same thing if your circumstances end up changing.

 

[Yamabushii]

I don't have any useful information about the internal political workings of the Genbukan (except to note that weird political in-fighting seems to be ubiquitous in the X-kans, going back to before Tanemura broke away from Hatusmi to form his own organization).

I will opine that if what you are learning in the Genbukan is valuable to you, then you won't have lost it if your dojo happens to end up splitting away from or getting kicked out of the organization. Any physical skills or life lessons you have gained are just as valid whether or not you are still officially a member of the Genbukan. I drifted away from the Bujinkan after about 10 years of training and explored a wide variety of other arts. The aspects of my Bujinkan training which I found to still hold value after I broadened my experience are still with me. I'm sure you'll find the same thing if your circumstances end up changing.

Absolutely agree to this. Well said.

 

[浪人:]

Committing a wee spot of thread necromancy because I'm at a personal crossroads of whether I'll stay or leave the Genbukan, and quite frankly I need to unload somewhere. Leaning towards the latter, to be honest. These have been my experiences with the org.

The good
I enjoyed how there was a strict and structured curriculum laid out in public, it was a welcome break from another x-kan offshoot I had trained with before who did the same techniques over and over. When the Japanese-style hierarchy was respected by all people, the classes felt very strict and well-structured. The sensei had picture-perfect remembrance of -kyu level Ninpo techniques, and the rare times his eldest student showed up he was also very knowledgeable and skilled. The dojo had a very traditional looking kamidana and in spite of the very local surroundings, the dojo did have an aura of tradition and spirituality to it.

The bad
There was very little emphasis on how techniques would work in real-life scenarios, in fact the concept of self-defence (goshinjutsu) was treated like something done as a break from the "serious" Ninpo curriculum. The "beauty" of the kamae and proper kiai were more important than any real effective training, which was treated dismissively and almost mockingly. There was a very distinct lack of understanding or support in overcoming the student's physical structure (injuries, body shapes, limitations) imposing limitations in performing techniques the "right way"; I did not like the one-size-fits-all approach to teaching techniques or the borderline theatrical aspects of it. Kuden were treated as these important secrets that could not be shared more than a handful of times and had to be written down in the student's notebook, and not as things that could help people survive a fight in today's increasingly more dangerous world to be drilled hard and often. It felt weird, not to say like a money-grab, to hear from the dojo-cho that the techniques in the DVDs were intentionally performed poorly to see who's training through DVDs rather than dojos. I felt much the same about the way the Genbukan sections off techniques into "Ninpo" and "Jujutsu", charging exam and yearly fees separately; to say nothing of charging for individual weapon exams as well. The exams themselves often felt like the dojo-cho already had arbitrated whether we should pass or fail when he didn't pass the judgement to his eldest student. One time he said I should pass when he had his mind in failing me, and made a point of stating all the things he didn't like about me as a student. It was obvious the grade he was stating was just something of a figure of speech to "motivate", there is no grade besides passing or failing and I've seen some pretty messy exams get a pass on account of personal bias.

The ugly
Small criticisms towards anyone who was there for longer or of a higher rank were completely disallowed. I'm not talking about mouthing off with opinions on how things should be, rather pointing out small, obvious mistakes in the most innoffensive, "hey we did this like this yesterday" manner possible; this appeared to be aimed exclusively at me, as some of the guys who had been there for years nearly went into shouting matches with the dojo-cho and each other at times. The arrogance and lack of care for regulations some of the elder students displayed, in particular the only other Dan level student, were frequent and often ellicited nothing more than a muted, angry reaction from the sensei; I lost the count of all the times they committed infractions that would've given me an earful, punitive training or even public humiliations. The dojo-cho was obviously deeply resentful of the organization and prone to tirades of scathing criticism of Tanemura. In spite of that, he often endured his eldest student going on rants and tirades about Roy Ron's (or Tozen or Kosen, whatever he's calling himself right now) Shisenkan and how much better and cheaper it was. There were a lot of times when imposing personal beliefs and overstepping boundaries made me personally uncomfortable and even angry towards the people there. It really struck a bad chord with me that an organization that claims to offer knowledge of the most ancient, benevolent and mystical sort in the form of Amatsu Tatara can produce people so petty, resentful and self-absorbed as some of the people I've met and created so many individuals that dedicated their lives to training under the Genbukan only to be kicked out over money squabbles, fratricidal internal politicking and the headmaster's intransigence.

 

[Yamabushii]

Committing a wee spot of thread necromancy because I'm at a personal crossroads of whether I'll stay or leave the Genbukan, and quite frankly I need to unload somewhere. Leaning towards the latter, to be honest. These have been my experiences with the org.

The good
I enjoyed how there was a strict and structured curriculum laid out in public, it was a welcome break from another x-kan offshoot I had trained with before who did the same techniques over and over. When the Japanese-style hierarchy was respected by all people, the classes felt very strict and well-structured. The sensei had picture-perfect remembrance of -kyu level Ninpo techniques, and the rare times his eldest student showed up he was also very knowledgeable and skilled. The dojo had a very traditional looking kamidana and in spite of the very local surroundings, the dojo did have an aura of tradition and spirituality to it.

The bad
There was very little emphasis on how techniques would work in real-life scenarios, in fact the concept of self-defence (goshinjutsu) was treated like something done as a break from the "serious" Ninpo curriculum. The "beauty" of the kamae and proper kiai were more important than any real effective training, which was treated dismissively and almost mockingly. There was a very distinct lack of understanding or support in overcoming the student's physical structure (injuries, body shapes, limitations) imposing limitations in performing techniques the "right way"; I did not like the one-size-fits-all approach to teaching techniques or the borderline theatrical aspects of it. Kuden were treated as these important secrets that could not be shared more than a handful of times and had to be written down in the student's notebook, and not as things that could help people survive a fight in today's increasingly more dangerous world to be drilled hard and often. It felt weird, not to say like a money-grab, to hear from the dojo-cho that the techniques in the DVDs were intentionally performed poorly to see who's training through DVDs rather than dojos. I felt much the same about the way the Genbukan sections off techniques into "Ninpo" and "Jujutsu", charging exam and yearly fees separately; to say nothing of charging for individual weapon exams as well. The exams themselves often felt like the dojo-cho already had arbitrated whether we should pass or fail when he didn't pass the judgement to his eldest student. One time he said I should pass when he had his mind in failing me, and made a point of stating all the things he didn't like about me as a student. It was obvious the grade he was stating was just something of a figure of speech to "motivate", there is no grade besides passing or failing and I've seen some pretty messy exams get a pass on account of personal bias.

The ugly
Small criticisms towards anyone who was there for longer or of a higher rank were completely disallowed. I'm not talking about mouthing off with opinions on how things should be, rather pointing out small, obvious mistakes in the most innoffensive, "hey we did this like this yesterday" manner possible; this appeared to be aimed exclusively at me, as some of the guys who had been there for years nearly went into shouting matches with the dojo-cho and each other at times. The arrogance and lack of care for regulations some of the elder students displayed, in particular the only other Dan level student, were frequent and often ellicited nothing more than a muted, angry reaction from the sensei; I lost the count of all the times they committed infractions that would've given me an earful, punitive training or even public humiliations. The dojo-cho was obviously deeply resentful of the organization and prone to tirades of scathing criticism of Tanemura. In spite of that, he often endured his eldest student going on rants and tirades about Roy Ron's (or Tozen or Kosen, whatever he's calling himself right now) Shisenkan and how much better and cheaper it was. There were a lot of times when imposing personal beliefs and overstepping boundaries made me personally uncomfortable and even angry towards the people there. It really struck a bad chord with me that an organization that claims to offer knowledge of the most ancient, benevolent and mystical sort in the form of Amatsu Tatara can produce people so petty, resentful and self-absorbed as some of the people I've met and created so many individuals that dedicated their lives to training under the Genbukan only to be kicked out over money squabbles, fratricidal internal politicking and the headmaster's intransigence.

Wait until you realize how corrupt the top of the leadership pole is. There is a reason why Ron Shihan, Wright Shihan, and several other Kyoshi left the Genbukan. Also, Ron Shihan is now "Kosen" to answer your question.

 

[浪人:]

Wait until you realize how corrupt the top of the leadership pole is. There is a reason why Ron Shihan, Wright Shihan, and several other Kyoshi left the Genbukan. Also, Ron Shihan is now "Kosen" to answer your question.

It wasn't a question, I was expressing how little I care for tough nicknames.

 

[drop bear104]

It wasn't a question, I was expressing how little I care for tough nicknames.

It is a buyers market for martial arts at the moment.

There are very few circumstances where staying in a school that is meh. Is going to benefit you long term

 

[Yamabushii]

It wasn't a question, I was expressing how little I care for tough nicknames.

It's common to take a new name in traditional Japanese martial arts after a significant life changing event. Do you think a name like "Smiley" or "Apple Sauce" would be more fitting?

 

[Oily Dragon]

It is a buyers market for martial arts at the moment.

There are very few circumstances where staying in a school that is meh. Is going to benefit you long term

I've always wondered this about the Xkans. Why so many stay for so many years inside what seems like a captive grading system on top of organizational politics.

I remember when I first learned of them, there were fewer Dan grades, and far fewer people involved. Going far still seemed like a big accomplishment. Now it just seems like people chasing something they can never really catch.

To me, any MA you pick up, you should be able to continue somewhere else. Not locked in.

 

[jks919975]

To me, any MA you pick up, you should be able to continue somewhere else. Not locked in.

Without getting into internal politics of organizations that I don't belong to... I don't see it as unreasonable to expect people training in one organization not to go to competitors -- especially if they split from those competitors under unpleasant circumstances. I see more concerns if they prohibit training in other, entirely separate systems, though there are some reasons for that which I would respect for students early in their training. If the student is trying to learn and retain two methods of movement, for example.

 

[Gyakuto104]

I've always wondered this about the Xkans. Why so many stay for so many years inside what seems like a captive grading system on top of organizational politics.

I wonder if it’s a ‘sense of investment’ where years have been devoted to the art and association, the chief instructors are viewed with a paternal haze and leaving would feel like abandoning a family or exiting a cult? There’s also the idea of credibility. Well-established schools of MA often have an air of ‘authenticity’ and being the ‘true way’. People want their training and advancement to bask in the light of that credibility. A new school, Ibildibobbidy ryu kan, perhaps set up by a senior student, will take a long time to develop the patina of credibility and that will depend upon the actions of the chief instructor.

 

[dunc]

I've always wondered this about the Xkans. Why so many stay for so many years inside what seems like a captive grading system on top of organizational politics.

I remember when I first learned of them, there were fewer Dan grades, and far fewer people involved. Going far still seemed like a big accomplishment. Now it just seems like people chasing something they can never really catch.

To me, any MA you pick up, you should be able to continue somewhere else. Not locked in.

I think there are three answers to this as it pertains to the Bujinkan (I can't speak to the other xKans)

1. Development. People feel they are still learning even after many years of training. The curriculum is huge and the depth of understanding of the martial arts that the top guys have is extremely rare on a global level. And you can only really access this through direct contact

2. Community. Linked to the above, people benefit from being part of a broader community of dojos where folks share insights and hang out at seminars etc

3. Grades/status. Hatsumi-sensei very deliberately created a never ending grading structure meaning that if people stopped coming to learn from him then their status quickly became out of date as folks around them were awarded bigger grades
Note: I don't think we should go down the rabbit hole of the Bujinkan grading system on this thread, but it served a very specific purpose to motivate people to keep coming to him for training albeit at a cost in terms of external credibility

4. Branding. Being part of a global organisation gives your dojo a brand to operate under and a lineage rather than being "Bob's Ninja Dojo"

As an aside Hatsumi-sensei simply stated that if you want to train with him then he asks that you don't train with former students of his who have severed ties and set up in competition. I don't think this is unusual or unreasonable. In my experience he would award folks who'd moved from other orgs an appropriate grade rather than making them start from scratch

Hope this helps

 

[Tony Dismukes103]

I don't see it as unreasonable to expect people training in one organization not to go to competitors -- especially if they split from those competitors under unpleasant circumstances.

As an aside Hatsumi-sensei simply stated that if you want to train with him then he asks that you don't train with former students of his who have severed ties and set up in competition. I don't think this is unusual or unreasonable.

I have a strong disagreement with this on a philosophical level. Not picking on the Bujinkan. I also don't care for BJJ instructors who try to forbid their students from visiting other schools or learning from other teachers.

The goal of a teacher should be to empower their students to learn in the best way for that student. It shouldn't be self-aggrandizement or building their personal empire at the expense of other instructors. That idea seems to be something peculiar to certain portions of the martial arts community. I've never had my college professors, my music teachers, my Spanish teacher, or any other teacher try to tell me that I couldn't learn their subject from someone else at the same time.

When I have students who have the time and motivation to visit other schools, I encourage them to do so. If they gain some useful insight, knowledge, or skills from doing so, then they can bring those lessons back and help everyone improve. If they don't come back because they find that the other school fits their needs better, then I might miss them, but I'm happy that they've found the path that suits them best.

 

[dunc]

I have a strong disagreement with this on a philosophical level. Not picking on the Bujinkan. I also don't care for BJJ instructors who try to forbid their students from visiting other schools or learning from other teachers.

The goal of a teacher should be to empower their students to learn in the best way for that student. It shouldn't be self-aggrandizement or building their personal empire at the expense of other instructors. That idea seems to be something peculiar to certain portions of the martial arts community. I've never had my college professors, my music teachers, my Spanish teacher, or any other teacher try to tell me that I couldn't learn their subject from someone else at the same time.

When I have students who have the time and motivation to visit other schools, I encourage them to do so. If they gain some useful insight, knowledge, or skills from doing so, then they can bring those lessons back and help everyone improve. If they don't come back because they find that the other school fits their needs better, then I might miss them, but I'm happy that they've found the path that suits them best.

On a personal level I agree
Anyone can train with me and I encourage members of our dojo to train with other clubs/teachers etc etc

However, I do understand that a teacher will feel like they've been stabbed in the back when a student sets up in direct competition to them, particularly when they've put a lot of their personal energy and time into helping them developing

Which is a little different from being OK with a BJJ student training at several academies. In my experience in BJJ for example folks are OK with this unless you're a competitor and planning to compete against the folk that are welcoming you into their class

 

[Tony Dismukes103]

In my experience in BJJ for example folks are OK with this unless you're a competitor and planning to compete against the folk that are welcoming you into their class

These days that is mostly the case, but there used to be a lot more interschool jealousy. The term "creonte" is still sometimes thrown around at people who change schools. I read an interview with Roy Harris where he recounted being kicked out from Rickson Gracie's school with no explanation, but he believes it was because he was cross-training with other schools and arts.

On a personal level, I can understand an instructor having their feelings hurt if a student breaks away and opens a competing school in the immediate neighborhood, especially if the instructor is trying to make a living with their school. But for the head of a worldwide organization like the Bujinkan it's kind of silly to feel like his livelihood was threatened by people who prefer to train outside of his leadership and just spiteful to insist that no one in his worldwide organization should train with instructors outside that organization.

A couple of years one of the senior black belts in our gym decided to break away and open his own school in the same city, just a few miles away. Several of our other black belts went with him, not out of personal animosity towards my instructor, but because they had issues with his approach to gym management. (I understood their concerns, but they weren't deal breakers for me.) I know my instructor was disappointed and wishes things had worked out differently. However, I'm still friends with all the instructors who left. Students from either school are welcome to visit open mats at both gyms, and some do. I've personally visited the other gym a couple of times for special events. If a student wanted to spend the extra money to pay for regular classes at both gyms, they would be welcome to do so.

 

[Oily Dragon]

As an aside Hatsumi-sensei simply stated that if you want to train with him then he asks that you don't train with former students of his who have severed ties and set up in competition. I don't think this is unusual or unreasonable. In my experience he would award folks who'd moved from other orgs an appropriate grade rather than making them start from scratch

Hope this helps

yeah of course.

But that's the issue in a nutshell. Large organizations tend to splinter off and dilute what is kind of the more important element of any lineage (the grandmaster).

Next thing, you have senior students claiming that title, but they don't have the history/books/background to back it up. Takamatsu was legit, which makes Hatsumi legit-enough for most purposes I guess (recall, I read and absorbed all his books, especially the esoteric stuff, but never stepped inside the door).

But what falls apart (like all lineages) is quality, because end of day, no martial art can truly control that. Not even BJJ, there are black belts out there teaching who are not remotely as good as the originals.

But let's face it...a LOT of people get into the Bujinkan and others because of ninjas, and not anything else. Maybe in the process they get the curtain pulled back a bit to see what "ninja" really means, or maybe they get led astray.

But remember just a few years ago how fraught with controversy these schools started with various people claiming to be ninja masters and throwing stuff out online. As someone who bought their first Hatsumi book almost 20 years ago, it was a big shift from "this could be legit" to "holy crap, this is batshit insane".

First Bujinkan guy I ever came across was actually Jack Hoban. Read his book, which I thought was great. That led me to Hatsumi's works, and his predecessors. My MA journey went into a different direction at the time, but I found it all helpful compared to a lot of the internet garbage out there today.

The 800'b "chasing the dragon" thing in the room with the X-kans is still, I think, people thinking that if they stay long enough, they will become true ninja. From my POV, becoming "ninja" is almost entirely mental, and is best summed up with this scene from Enter the Ninja:

 

[drop bear104]

On a personal level I agree
Anyone can train with me and I encourage members of our dojo to train with other clubs/teachers etc etc

However, I do understand that a teacher will feel like they've been stabbed in the back when a student sets up in direct competition to them, particularly when they've put a lot of their personal energy and time into helping them developing

Which is a little different from being OK with a BJJ student training at several academies. In my experience in BJJ for example folks are OK with this unless you're a competitor and planning to compete against the folk that are welcoming you into their class

What Tony said. Exept you will get hunted down and bashed.

 

[dunc]

Rightly or wrongly it's part of Japanese martial arts culture

This culture puts great store in the student/teacher relationship. Important details are taught 121 and the teacher invests their time and effort in the student in return the student commits not to share the teacher's unique details/techniques (in the old days military secrets) outside of the school

Even in today's world of BJJ instructional videos teachers hold back key details for their direct students

Finally I'd suggest that Hatsumi-sensei played a blinder in terms of retaining his own direct personal control over the art despite its size. Probably nowadays it would take a different approach, but very few martial artists achieved what he did in this regard and at that scale

 

[Bujingodai]

I was in the Booj, and I cross trained in a number of arts, went to as many seminars as I could. Mostly far different arts, sometimes independent break aways of Kans.
Glad I did, different viewpoints from different angles of thought possibly complimenting each other, also met a lot of buffoons.
Never felt guilty for it. I did leave the Bujinkan after going to Japan. That was for personal opinions of course. Which I could go into but honestly that was a while back and means very little to anyone but me