Was Rokas wrong about bujinkan?

Urban Trekker

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Actually, no he didn't. He just said it messes with some techniques. And that's true of a lot of traditinoal small-joint manipulation. Most of them can still be done, but are either harder to get to or are easier to resist when wearing MMA gloves. Larger gloves make many of them impossible.

This is not a factor for systems that don't train much on small-joint manipulation (like Judo, for instance).
Is Bujinkan heavy on small joint manipulation?

I don't know. I do know that I've seen plenty of YouTube videos of Bujinkan practitioners sparring with other martials artists - I've seen Bujiunkan versus karate, judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and MMA - and Bujinkan appears to be primarily a striking art. In fact, I can't recall any instances of Bujinkan guys even trying to grapple - not even against other grappling arts.

I'm open to the possibility that there are some nuances that I may have missed.

In life in general - not just martial arts - when someone focuses on why something won't work, rather than trying to find ways to make it work, what they say becomes that much more dubious.
 

drop bear

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Is Bujinkan heavy on small joint manipulation?

I don't know. I do know that I've seen plenty of YouTube videos of Bujinkan practitioners sparring with other martials artists - I've seen Bujiunkan versus karate, judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and MMA - and Bujinkan appears to be primarily a striking art. In fact, I can't recall any instances of Bujinkan guys even trying to grapple - not even against other grappling arts.

I'm open to the possibility that there are some nuances that I may have missed.

In life in general - not just martial arts - when someone focuses on why something won't work, rather than trying to find ways to make it work, what they say becomes that much more dubious.

It is unlikely they would do it in sparring anyway.

Start bending fingers in sparring. You get broken fingers.
 

gpseymour

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Is Bujinkan heavy on small joint manipulation?

I don't know. I do know that I've seen plenty of YouTube videos of Bujinkan practitioners sparring with other martials artists - I've seen Bujiunkan versus karate, judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and MMA - and Bujinkan appears to be primarily a striking art. In fact, I can't recall any instances of Bujinkan guys even trying to grapple - not even against other grappling arts.

I'm open to the possibility that there are some nuances that I may have missed.

In life in general - not just martial arts - when someone focuses on why something won't work, rather than trying to find ways to make it work, what they say becomes that much more dubious.
I've only seen a bit of Budo Taijutsu, and it included some small-joint manipulation. The movement and basic approach suggested to me there was a significant use of it (folks who don't do small-joint stuff don't tend to like being out past the elbow much).

The problem with using something like MMA as a measuring stick (why doesn't X participate in MMA) is that it only takes a moderate disadvantage to make a system a poor choice for that competition. Folks who do reasonably well in MMA tend to be folks who focus their training on what works in MMA. Anything that's 80% as good in that context won't do very well (average competitor starting with a 20% disadvantage), and isn't likely to get anyone to a level any of us would ever see.
 

drop bear

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I've only seen a bit of Budo Taijutsu, and it included some small-joint manipulation. The movement and basic approach suggested to me there was a significant use of it (folks who don't do small-joint stuff don't tend to like being out past the elbow much).

The problem with using something like MMA as a measuring stick (why doesn't X participate in MMA) is that it only takes a moderate disadvantage to make a system a poor choice for that competition. Folks who do reasonably well in MMA tend to be folks who focus their training on what works in MMA. Anything that's 80% as good in that context won't do very well (average competitor starting with a 20% disadvantage), and isn't likely to get anyone to a level any of us would ever see.

Not really. Bjj guard play doesn't do well for gnp. Muay thai stances are not good defending take downs, boxing head movement is susceptible to kicks, wrestlers give up their backs to submissions.

And yet they manage.

All the core principles of MMA make these other principles more successful. If you ever want to get to a point you can use small joint manipulation You have to control the fight up to that point.

You have to dodge their punches, avoid their take downs, clinch in a manner that isolates that small joint.

Then you can attack with whatever specialisation you like.

It is not gloves that are really preventing someone from putting a wrist lock on a guy. It is the fact gloves let the other guy belt you hard enough that it becomes a very difficult task. Especially if you don't have those core skills.

This is dan Kelly doing judo without a gi.


Which he does at the highest level without the advantage of grips while someone is trying to punch him.

I mean I'd you want to talk about giving up style advantage. That is a pretty big step.
 
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gpseymour

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Not really. Bjj guard play doesn't do well for gnp. Muay thai stances are not good defending take downs, boxing head movement is susceptible to kicks, wrestlers give up their backs to submissions.

And yet they manage.

All the core principles of MMA make these other principles more successful. If you ever want to get to a point you can use small joint manipulation You have to control the fight up to that point.

You have to dodge their punches, avoid their take downs, clinch in a manner that isolates that small joint.

Then you can attack with whatever specialisation you like.

It is not gloves that are really preventing someone from putting a wrist lock on a guy. It is the fact gloves let the other guy belt you hard enough that it becomes a very difficult task. Especially if you don't have those core skills.

This is dan Kelly doing judo without a gi.


Which he does at the highest level without the advantage of grips while someone is trying to punch him.

I mean I'd you want to talk about giving up style advantage. That is a pretty big step.
I pretty much agree with that. I don’t think any of that is counter to anything I said. As for small joint manipulation, I’ve never seen it used much in MMA. This, a system that has much focus on that is spending time on something not much use in MMA. That’s an immediate disadvantage.
 

drop bear

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I pretty much agree with that. I don’t think any of that is counter to anything I said. As for small joint manipulation, I’ve never seen it used much in MMA. This, a system that has much focus on that is spending time on something not much use in MMA. That’s an immediate disadvantage.

More than say a system that relies on a gi and doesn't include punching?
 

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I've only seen a bit of Budo Taijutsu, and it included some small-joint manipulation. The movement and basic approach suggested to me there was a significant use of it (folks who don't do small-joint stuff don't tend to like being out past the elbow much).

The problem with using something like MMA as a measuring stick (why doesn't X participate in MMA) is that it only takes a moderate disadvantage to make a system a poor choice for that competition. Folks who do reasonably well in MMA tend to be folks who focus their training on what works in MMA. Anything that's 80% as good in that context won't do very well (average competitor starting with a 20% disadvantage), and isn't likely to get anyone to a level any of us would ever see.
Wait, you mean context matters? Who woulda guessed.
 
D

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Still is something to eb said how the tradtional combat sports of MT,Boxing, MMA, BJJ, Judo, Wrestling and some others seem to work well in their sport and taken out into "the streets" as opposed to some other things. I dont really want to include TKD, well it as a sport doesnt work like the others so exeption, and if we consider it a martial art, its not included tradtionally anyway. (to be listed with MT, Bxing , Judo etc)
 

Steve

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Is HEMA accurate?

I mean I assume there is nobody learning to be a peasant for example.

Which still doesn't necessarily matter. As an inaccurate example still has merit. It is why we have myths.
No clue how accurate it is. I don't think it needs to be, really. Once you remove practical skill and results from the equation, things open up a lot. When you aren't worried about whether it would work, you are just having fun and maybe getting some exercise.
So if bujinkan is about culture, great. As long as folks who train in it know it's not about fighting, the stakes are super low. No one will get hurt, and it can focus on the cool outfits and moxy, and no one gets hurt.
 

drop bear

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No clue how accurate it is. I don't think it needs to be, really. Once you remove practical skill and results from the equation, things open up a lot. When you aren't worried about whether it would work, you are just having fun and maybe getting some exercise.
So if bujinkan is about culture, great. As long as folks who train in it know it's not about fighting, the stakes are super low. No one will get hurt, and it can focus on the cool outfits and moxy, and no one gets hurt.
Yeah. You create a story. Which can still be important to development.

I mean that is what religion ultimately does.
 

BrendanF

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No clue how accurate it is. I don't think it needs to be, really. Once you remove practical skill and results from the equation, things open up a lot. When you aren't worried about whether it would work, you are just having fun and maybe getting some exercise.
So if bujinkan is about culture, great. As long as folks who train in it know it's not about fighting, the stakes are super low. No one will get hurt, and it can focus on the cool outfits and moxy, and no one gets hurt.

And if the X-Kan arts were about a real culture, that would be fine. The problem many serious Japanese martial artists have with them is that they are 'about' a theatrical myth, and are not in any way representative of any genuine historical practices. Evading that truth has involved multiple personality and name changes over the years.
 

Steve

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And if the X-Kan arts were about a real culture, that would be fine. The problem many serious Japanese martial artists have with them is that they are 'about' a theatrical myth, and are not in any way representative of any genuine historical practices. Evading that truth has involved multiple personality and name changes over the years.
My opinion is that this is a function of a bit of elitism and authenticity. No art today is fully authentic to history, if for no other reason than that we don't apply the art in it's historical context. Some are simply more or less authentic.

If effective technique that teaches practical skill is the priority, then questions of authenticity are (at most) secondary. The culture of the style evolves and no big deal.

If practical skill is deprioritized, authenticity becomes very important. It's central to otherwise unsubstantiated claims to be effective. "My style works because ninja (or samurai, or spec ops, etc) used it, and my style is authentic!". In reality, none are fully authentic , and so it's a matter of degrees.

I've said similar things regarding styles that move away from their homeland. Taking Japan out of a koryu art is similar to taking fighting skill out of self defense. You end up with a sales pitch.

And to be clear, as long as folks know what they're getting, I am good. I love going to the world showcase at Disney world. But I also know it's not really authentic. Enjoy things for what they really are and you'll be a lot happier.
 

gpseymour

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More than say a system that relies on a gi and doesn't include punching?
Hmm....perhaps more. Remember what I said earlier about the overall approach and movement suggesting to me they have a singificant amount of small joint manipulation? That's part of the system, and that basic movement/distancing wouldn't translate well to MMA.

Judo's basic distancing for grappling works better there. And the systematic inclusion of competition provides a better base for learning to adapt - you're surrounded by folks who have worked out how to resist and how to apply against that resistance. So even with the dramatically different ruleset, a lot more of Judo translates.

BJJ (not sure which you meant in your post) also translates better, for most of the same reasons, and also because (unlike Judo) it is built to evolve, and has evolved from MMA experience.
 

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Hmm....perhaps more. Remember what I said earlier about the overall approach and movement suggesting to me they have a singificant amount of small joint manipulation? That's part of the system, and that basic movement/distancing wouldn't translate well to MMA.

Judo's basic distancing for grappling works better there. And the systematic inclusion of competition provides a better base for learning to adapt - you're surrounded by folks who have worked out how to resist and how to apply against that resistance. So even with the dramatically different ruleset, a lot more of Judo translates.

BJJ (not sure which you meant in your post) also translates better, for most of the same reasons, and also because (unlike Judo) it is built to evolve, and has evolved from MMA experience.
Thing is, if a judoka wants to be more well rounded, he or she need only compete outside of the olympic judo ruleset. The focus on developing skills to the exclusion of things outside of the rules is a weakness, only if you train for a single ruleset to the exclusion of all other skills. And only if your goal is to be well rounded.

So, Muay Thai boxers who compete in Muay Thai develop expertise in all of the related skills that are helpful in that rule set. When they want to move into MMA, they need to evolve... this forces them to develop expertise in new skills. If they want to get into kickboxing, once again, they will be forced to adapt, which broadens their skillset.

In the same way, a BJJ or Judo player can expand their skillset by simply expanding their competitive base.

And the stronger and more reliable one's skillset is, the more likely that person will be to transfer his or her skills from familiar contexts into unfamiliar contexts, like a street fight. It will also make any training in that direction much more reliable.

Simply put, a ninja who wants to compete in any ruleset will have a much more difficult time than a person who competes who is fighting outside of their traditional ruleset. The foundation for the ninja is questionable, at best, and so any discussion of transferring skills to foreign contexts is putting the cart before the horse. If we're being honest, we can't really rely on performance within their primary context.

And to circle back to earlier discussion, if being able to fight or defend oneself isn't the primary goal, no problem. There are other reasons to train in a martial art.
 

punisher73

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My opinion is that this is a function of a bit of elitism and authenticity. No art today is fully authentic to history, if for no other reason than that we don't apply the art in it's historical context. Some are simply more or less authentic.

If effective technique that teaches practical skill is the priority, then questions of authenticity are (at most) secondary. The culture of the style evolves and no big deal.

If practical skill is deprioritized, authenticity becomes very important. It's central to otherwise unsubstantiated claims to be effective. "My style works because ninja (or samurai, or spec ops, etc) used it, and my style is authentic!". In reality, none are fully authentic , and so it's a matter of degrees.

I've said similar things regarding styles that move away from their homeland. Taking Japan out of a koryu art is similar to taking fighting skill out of self defense. You end up with a sales pitch.

And to be clear, as long as folks know what they're getting, I am good. I love going to the world showcase at Disney world. But I also know it's not really authentic. Enjoy things for what they really are and you'll be a lot happier.

I agree with this.

Also, talking about "ninjutsu" as a fighting art you (generic you) have to look at its historical context. Most of the "real ninjutsu" skills were spy tactics, avoiding detection etc. Even their unarmed combat was based on how to avoid capture and get away. It was NOT designed to "dual" with the other person like we would see in a sports combat setting. So, its either "authentic" or its "updated for modern use" because in its context, it wasn't designed for that environment. Please note, I am NOT saying it is "too deadly" for sport. Just pointing out that it was designed for running away.

IMHO this guy "gets it" when it comes to applying ninjutsu.
 
D

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I agree with this.

Also, talking about "ninjutsu" as a fighting art you (generic you) have to look at its historical context. Most of the "real ninjutsu" skills were spy tactics, avoiding detection etc. Even their unarmed combat was based on how to avoid capture and get away. It was NOT designed to "dual" with the other person like we would see in a sports combat setting. So, its either "authentic" or its "updated for modern use" because in its context, it wasn't designed for that environment. Please note, I am NOT saying it is "too deadly" for sport. Just pointing out that it was designed for running away.

IMHO this guy "gets it" when it comes to applying ninjutsu.
Thats with the statement of, if it even existed to begin with or has any historcal or as deep hisotrical prescence as is claimed.

But yeah, its sort of bad to build a combat system off of something not for that and just self defence basically. Talking and conflict management is a bigger skill needed, the ohysical skilsl will come off of that, so if your taling to a police man you stab them in the eye with a hidden weapon, stomp on them and/or run off if you cant talk your way out of getting arrested.

The main issues i have as i have exapliend is the first point, and the fact they dont seem to teach proper skills in modernity. Like there are modern proffessions that do "ninja" skills to varying degrees, you cant learn how to do these jobs by doing ninjutsu. Case and point, do you learn lock picking, how to deal with compuers, CCTV, bledning in with other people? Or do you just swing a obsolete weapon around while wearing something riddiculuse which breaks the grey man rules?

Granted i think some legit dodgy oginsiations have used ninjutsu as a base(/front), they tend to use martial arts and the like as a cover for learning some things, i cant think of any or if it was just the off handed claim of somone trying to impress somone else. Its not a far flung thing and has been done (nothing says it cant), but i cant think of any using Ninjutsu specfically.
 

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Thats with the statement of, if it even existed to begin with or has any historcal or as deep hisotrical prescence as is claimed.

But yeah, its sort of bad to build a combat system off of something not for that and just self defence basically. Talking and conflict management is a bigger skill needed, the ohysical skilsl will come off of that, so if your taling to a police man you stab them in the eye with a hidden weapon, stomp on them and/or run off if you cant talk your way out of getting arrested.

The main issues i have as i have exapliend is the first point, and the fact they dont seem to teach proper skills in modernity. Like there are modern proffessions that do "ninja" skills to varying degrees, you cant learn how to do these jobs by doing ninjutsu. Case and point, do you learn lock picking, how to deal with compuers, CCTV, bledning in with other people? Or do you just swing a obsolete weapon around while wearing something riddiculuse which breaks the grey man rules?

Granted i think some legit dodgy oginsiations have used ninjutsu as a base(/front), they tend to use martial arts and the like as a cover for learning some things, i cant think of any or if it was just the off handed claim of somone trying to impress somone else. Its not a far flung thing and has been done (nothing says it cant), but i cant think of any using Ninjutsu specfically.
I think we are in agreement on that. Based on the ninjutsu manuals, it dealt with the "modern things" of that time. Most "ninja" schools still teach that historical stuff because of the "tradition" of it. If you have a "modern ninjustsu" school, they would claim that it is not ninjutsu. LOL

Modern things that would teach "ninja skills" (again based on the historical texts we have): Wilderness Survival/Prepper training, Military Special Ops, CIA Spy etc.
 
D

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I think we are in agreement on that. Based on the ninjutsu manuals, it dealt with the "modern things" of that time. Most "ninja" schools still teach that historical stuff because of the "tradition" of it. If you have a "modern ninjustsu" school, they would claim that it is not ninjutsu. LOL

Modern things that would teach "ninja skills" (again based on the historical texts we have): Wilderness Survival/Prepper training, Military Special Ops, CIA Spy etc.
My partial complaint is they act like its viable in modernity as well. Hell the outfit is completely fake. theyd basically never wear that, its the equal of walking around in camoflauge where you should be wearing a suit. I dont even know if the "ninja" outfit has any hisotrical basis at all.

In principle though it looks good, just the fact its doccumentation, hsiotry and existance is dubious and its implinetation of the dubiousness has sort of ruined the fun aspect of it. Cant really argue about learning the skills, they have some use and pending your own intrests can very much be argued for both for fun and proffessionally in principle. (by that i mean lockpicking in general not nesssisarily learning to pick japanese 1600's locks)
 

punisher73

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My partial complaint is they act like its viable in modernity as well. Hell the outfit is completely fake. theyd basically never wear that, its the equal of walking around in camoflauge where you should be wearing a suit. I dont even know if the "ninja" outfit has any hisotrical basis at all.

In principle though it looks good, just the fact its doccumentation, hsiotry and existance is dubious and its implinetation of the dubiousness has sort of ruined the fun aspect of it. Cant really argue about learning the skills, they have some use and pending your own intrests can very much be argued for both for fun and proffessionally in principle. (by that i mean lockpicking in general not nesssisarily learning to pick japanese 1600's locks)
My understanding is the "ninja outfit" was from Japanese theater. Certain persons would wear all black on stage to do certain things and not be seen. As spies, they would have worn stuff to blend in with their mission.


Video of Stephen K. Hayes. Shows how ninjutsu should be applied today.
 

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